Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

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mike
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by mike »

Sudsy wrote:I understand but just saying some would stop reading the books of these men I referred to if they knew they did these things they considered sin. I was raised that any alcohol drinking, all smoking, owning a TV, etc were all sins.

Where does one 'draw the line' on what sins of an author reach a level where their books should all be ignored ? Is this not an individual's decision on what sin crosses that line ? What if you found out an author whose writings encouraged you in your faith walk and then you found out he was divorced and remarried or he had a gambling habit or beat his wife ? Doesn't how the repulsiveness of the sin to us affect what we would do ?
Yes, of course it is an individual decision. I don't think anyone here has been arguing for wholesale book burning or censorship. And yes, the repulsiveness of the sin does affect what people do, as it should. I am more repulsed by some sins than others. If I found an author was divorced and remarried it might factor in my decision; but for example CS Lewis was, and I've read and appreciated his books. If I found that an author turned into being a gay nightclub-hopper, I would be far less likely. If I found that the author had a beer with his hamburger every other Thursday night, it would matter somewhat less to me. Of course the degree of repulsiveness of the sin affects us. And that is as it should be.

Would you say that no sin that a person might fall into could be so evil or wicked that it would give you any pause in appreciating a book he may have written prior to his "fall"? Not trying to pin you to the wall here, just curious.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by Josh »

Holdemans have a distinction of death sins versus other sins. We also have a view that one doesn’t have the Holy Spirit and is essentially outside of God’s grace when one is engaging in death sins. They include blatant adultery (not fringe definitions like D&R), homosexuality, murder, and so forth.

If one doesn’t have the Holy Spirit, then what one writes is limited to earthly wisdom and what they say is not of God. Their books need to be viewed with a more critical eye.

If one lives in sin, one will write books justifying and excusing such sins. E. Michael Jones made that case very well in Degenerate Moderns. I will still read a book by a degenerate such as Luther or Kinsey, but I will be suspicious that they will be trying to justify their immoral acts.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by Sudsy »

mike wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I understand but just saying some would stop reading the books of these men I referred to if they knew they did these things they considered sin. I was raised that any alcohol drinking, all smoking, owning a TV, etc were all sins.

Where does one 'draw the line' on what sins of an author reach a level where their books should all be ignored ? Is this not an individual's decision on what sin crosses that line ? What if you found out an author whose writings encouraged you in your faith walk and then you found out he was divorced and remarried or he had a gambling habit or beat his wife ? Doesn't how the repulsiveness of the sin to us affect what we would do ?
Yes, of course it is an individual decision. I don't think anyone here has been arguing for wholesale book burning or censorship. And yes, the repulsiveness of the sin does affect what people do, as it should. I am more repulsed by some sins than others. If I found an author was divorced and remarried it might factor in my decision; but for example CS Lewis was, and I've read and appreciated his books. If I found that an author turned into being a gay nightclub-hopper, I would be far less likely. If I found that the author had a beer with his hamburger every other Thursday night, it would matter somewhat less to me. Of course the degree of repulsiveness of the sin affects us. And that is as it should be.

Would you say that no sin that a person might fall into could be so evil or wicked that it would give you any pause in appreciating a book he may have written prior to his "fall"? Not trying to pin you to the wall here, just curious.
Myself, no. I believe many of the Psalms were written before David set up Uriah to be killed so he could have Uriah's wife. One of these being Psalm 23. Granted David repented but his prior to repentance writings I believe were inspired.

Here is a probable timeline on the Psalms - https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/p ... aral18.cfm

The way I look at it is that as is said in 1 Cor 10, any of us are capable of terrible sinning. God has made a way of escape for us in any temptation but we must take it. John Yoder and his continual area of sinning or Karl Barth likewise shows a gap between their theology and behaviour.

I just believe God is at work in many imperfect vessels and we don't know some of the sinning challenges some have as they are more secretive. How many authors might be lusting after women in their mind and therefore are committing adultery ? Or secretly watching porn ? Or beating their wives and those wives are silent ?
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy, are you suggesting that David's writings after his repentance might not be inspired? If so, why? What about Psalm 51? I would think that only his writings after his sin and before his repentance would be questionable. And I'm not sure any of those have survived.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

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ohio jones wrote:Sudsy, are you suggesting that David's writings after his repentance might not be inspired? If so, why? What about Psalm 51? I would think that only his writings after his sin and before his repentance would be questionable. And I'm not sure any of those have survived.
No, I was just trying to say that there are writings, like Psalm 23, before his ugly sin that would cause me to disregard Psalm 23 as inspired. I think all of the Psalms were inspired. That link I gave shows the probable dates for each Psalm.

I don't know how many sexual violations John Yoder had before he wrote the Politics of Jesus but I don't throw out his book because of his failings. Others will.

Charles Templeton was a great evangelist and one involved in the creation of Youth For Christ. In 1946, he was listed among those best used of God by the National Association of Evangelicals. A close friend of Billy Graham. Thousands of converts came from his ministry. Then he began to have doubts and ended up an atheist. Were some folks truly saved during his ministry ? I have no doubt to believe they were. Sad, story about Charles not enduring to the end.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by Josh »

I feel like the Bible is inspired and am a bit disturbed we could sit and debate the inspiration of Old Testament scripture.

That’s a very different topic than if we should trust non-inspired books written in the New Testament era.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

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Josh wrote:I feel like the Bible is inspired and am a bit disturbed we could sit and debate the inspiration of Old Testament scripture.

That’s a very different topic than if we should trust non-inspired books written in the New Testament era.
I agree with your point that the inspiration of the OT is not the same as inspiration of books outside of the scriptures.

However, I still believe God can be the inspiration behind anyone's writings prior to and even during their acts of sinning. In any case, all writings outside of scripture need to be considered in light of the scriptures. All authors are sinning, some it just takes time for their sins to find them out. God is at work through imperfect beings to bring about His purposes, imo.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by Hats Off »

So has the discussion been about Harvey Yoder? I am sure we have a few of his books.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by francis »

queserasera_2 wrote:If this is known fact, I don't think naming names is out of place. Warning against false teachers is important.

One I've struggled with musician Ray Boltz. I used to like some of his stuff...
Yet so many professed "orthodox" Christians take no issue listening to music produced by churches like Bethel, Hillsong, and others which preach the prosperity gospel. It seems like the Christian world's outrage is selective.
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Re: Popular Mennonite author turns out to be a predatory homosexual... What about his books?

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote: The way I look at it is that as is said in 1 Cor 10, any of us are capable of terrible sinning. God has made a way of escape for us in any temptation but we must take it. John Yoder and his continual area of sinning or Karl Barth likewise shows a gap between their theology and behaviour.

I just believe God is at work in many imperfect vessels and we don't know some of the sinning challenges some have as they are more secretive. How many authors might be lusting after women in their mind and therefore are committing adultery ? Or secretly watching porn ? Or beating their wives and those wives are silent ?
I can agree with this. A relative of ours likes to say “You never know what’s cooking in someone’s stew pot”.

Then there’s my favorite Bible story that shows God can use any means and creature to get His message across as needed. The listener just needs to open his ears and pay attention. I have found that the more time we spend in prayer, the easier it is to hear what God has to say and to follow through on it. Obviously Balaam had a really slow learning curve and God had to use other means to get his attention:
[bible]Numbers 22, 21-39[/bible]
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