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Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:53 am
by appleman2006
Obviously I am still not getting the point across that I was trying to make and I take the total blame for that.
Let me try one more time. I can assure you that if a group of my immediate friends or acquaintances had developed an epidemic case of whooping cough I would not be rubbing it in their face or telling them I told you so. That is not how I try to conduct myself and I certainly get no satisfaction at being proven correct especially when others are hurting.
For example I have on numerous occasions felt compelled to warn people that I have seen fall for various MLM schemes. It would be far easier to simply let them make their mistakes and learn the hard way rather than have the thankless job of warning them of what I see as a sure disaster. And I can tell you for a fact that when it ultimately does fail I do not go back and tell them I told you so. I get no satisfaction at being right in that case at all. In fact for their sake I would gladly choose to be wrong if it could mean they would not be hurt. And some of those people that I have had those encounters with me are still my close friends to this day.
As I see it, not to warn when you see mistakes being made is in fact to simply not care. And when disasters do strike as they have in this case I think it is prudent to use those cases as history lessons to hopefully help others not make the same mistake.
I do not consider myself to be smarter than anyone else. I have much to learn on many subjects. And I am always open to being proven wrong. But that does not mean I will stay quiet when I see others are about to be hurt because of wrong choices. Thank you for once more hearing me out.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:07 pm
by Judas Maccabeus
Soloist wrote:
2: Are ya'll in favor of gardasil? or would you believe its wrong to vaccinate against a sexual transmitted disease that causes cancer?
Uhhhh....
I think if you are considering going into healthcare it would be good for you to know that the HPV virus may not be exclusively an STD. A fair percentage of Squamous type head and neck cancers are HPV related. Are they STDs, or are people infected some other way? We don't know. We did not know they were HPV related in the past because it appears, no one looked.
Of course, some may engage in conclusion jumping, but the data is just not there yet , not even close. Will we know in a few years? Likely.
I am just waiting for data on squamous type esophageal cancers.
Of course, to the people that put up these websites, it appears that they seem to have it all figured out. Whatever fits their worldview is true.
J.M.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:45 pm
by Judas Maccabeus
Wade wrote:lesterb wrote:There will always be illustrations that anti-vax people can give. Those illustrations can be pretty emotional. I've seen that in my own family, and I have no problem understanding why they feel that way. But when you look at statistics you can't avoid the fact that vaccinations have saved a lot of lives. People who are anti vaccination are protected by the circle of vaccinated people around them, but in a situation like this, where a disease gets started within a larger circle of unvaccinated people, the results can be devastating.
My advice to my family is always that they should vaccinate their children. Maybe wait until they are a little older than the norm and can handle it better, but in the long run vaccinations are more helpful than harmful to society.
Just my thought.
Thank you Lester, I agree with you for the most part, but from a different angle to consider:
Emotions can be very useful when they motivate us.
Some may question this graph below or where it came from - I am not bothering wasting much time with this, however most of the graphs you will find actually say the same thing - except they can be easily manipulated by changing how many or how little of years, number of deaths and how much the graphs jump up and down with those numbers.
A person can make statistics and graphs look however they want if they play with them enough and convince or sway things one way - so I recommend always looking at the bottom and side measurements first to see if the numbers increase at the same rate and what those numbers actually mean. Especially these graphs normally are very accurate but only span a 10 year period and easily give a wrong impression of what is in fact true data.
You see, often the dropping line (or rising) on the graphs are used to sway our emotions and those who think they are not being emotional often are, unless they take the time to look at the measurements used. So when we slow down and look at real long term consistent graphs we find something much different than those 10 year graphs.
vaccines.png
By looking at a graph like this one could come to the conclusion that by the time the vaccine for whooping cough was even introduced that it really had no benefit and made no difference in the rate of change to the amount of deaths - therefore statistics/graphs could show that the vaccine was actually completely ineffective. I am not claiming this.
The other side of this is also misdiagnoses - unintentional and intentional...
If you rescale that graph so the Y-max is at full scale in 1940 it would have a different appearance completely. Whoever made that graph is misusing statistics. It hides any change that occurs after about 1940. I know you did not do it, but if you don't understand what effect scale has on the appearance of one of these graphs, it obscures real changes.
J.M.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:20 pm
by Josh
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Soloist wrote:
2: Are ya'll in favor of gardasil? or would you believe its wrong to vaccinate against a sexual transmitted disease that causes cancer?
Uhhhh....
I think if you are considering going into healthcare it would be good for you to know that the HPV virus may not be exclusively an STD. A fair percentage of Squamous type head and neck cancers are HPV related. Are they STDs, or are people infected some other way? We don't know. We did not know they were HPV related in the past because it appears, no one looked.
Of course, some may engage in conclusion jumping, but the data is just not there yet , not even close. Will we know in a few years? Likely.
I am just waiting for data on squamous type esophageal cancers.
Of course, to the people that put up these websites, it appears that they seem to have it all figured out. Whatever fits their worldview is true.
J.M.
Not to mention that if one marries someone who has not been chaste anytime in the past, they could have HPV. Something like half the population has it.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:24 pm
by Judas Maccabeus
Josh wrote:Judas Maccabeus wrote:Soloist wrote:
2: Are ya'll in favor of gardasil? or would you believe its wrong to vaccinate against a sexual transmitted disease that causes cancer?
Uhhhh....
I think if you are considering going into healthcare it would be good for you to know that the HPV virus may not be exclusively an STD. A fair percentage of Squamous type head and neck cancers are HPV related. Are they STDs, or are people infected some other way? We don't know. We did not know they were HPV related in the past because it appears, no one looked.
Of course, some may engage in conclusion jumping, but the data is just not there yet , not even close. Will we know in a few years? Likely.
I am just waiting for data on squamous type esophageal cancers.
Of course, to the people that put up these websites, it appears that they seem to have it all figured out. Whatever fits their worldview is true.
J.M.
Not to mention that if one marries someone who has not been chaste anytime in the past, they could have HPV. Something like half the population has it.
It seems that the attitude of some of the stuff I have read is "If one of my daughters engages in a moral lapse, she must be punished with cancer." I don't know how Christlike that attitude is.
J.M.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:10 pm
by Josh
I do agree it doesn't make sense for 11 year olds to take a vaccine that expires in 7 years, and Merck's marketing for Gardasil was really aggressive (especially considering its questionable effectiveness). But it would definitely make sense in a vaccination schedule for adults.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:47 am
by lesterb
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Josh wrote:Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Uhhhh....
I think if you are considering going into healthcare it would be good for you to know that the HPV virus may not be exclusively an STD. A fair percentage of Squamous type head and neck cancers are HPV related. Are they STDs, or are people infected some other way? We don't know. We did not know they were HPV related in the past because it appears, no one looked.
Of course, some may engage in conclusion jumping, but the data is just not there yet , not even close. Will we know in a few years? Likely.
I am just waiting for data on squamous type esophageal cancers.
Of course, to the people that put up these websites, it appears that they seem to have it all figured out. Whatever fits their worldview is true.
J.M.
Not to mention that if one marries someone who has not been chaste anytime in the past, they could have HPV. Something like half the population has it.
It seems that the attitude of some of the stuff I have read is "If one of my daughters engages in a moral lapse, she must be punished with cancer." I don't know how Christlike that attitude is.
J.M.
And what if your daughter is raped by an infected person?
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:39 am
by Joy
lesterb wrote:Have you ever read the book, When I Lay My Isaac Down? That is an exact illustration of the kind of person you are talking about. Had he been protected from buying a gun, he would not have taken the life that put him in prison for the rest of his life.
The tragedy could also have been avoided if he had obeyed God's command not to marry a divorced woman.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:16 pm
by MaxPC
Joy wrote:lesterb wrote:Have you ever read the book, When I Lay My Isaac Down? That is an exact illustration of the kind of person you are talking about. Had he been protected from buying a gun, he would not have taken the life that put him in prison for the rest of his life.
The tragedy could also have been avoided if he had obeyed God's command not to marry a divorced woman.
God takes all of our "ifs" and perfects them in His plans. God writes straight with crooked lines.
Re: Bunny Trails
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:00 pm
by Sudsy
MaxPC wrote:
God takes all of our "ifs" and perfects them in His plans. God writes straight with crooked lines.
I call that 'amazing grace'. How sweet the sound to one like me that has messed up in my Christian walk various times. As a sheep is prone to wander, I have been one of those. Backslid into worldly involvements, D&R twice, etc, and yet Christ was still standing at the door waiting for a return to fellowship. Some here and elsewhere would have wrote me off with their orthodoxy and yet I experience that amazing grace and know He still cares and works out His plans in spite of my failings. Some of us learn obedience the hard and painful way. By that amazing grace, I can move on as God is a God of new beginnings. We suffer when we miss the ideal way of life God outlines for us but there is no sin too great that He will not forgive and give us a fresh start except for totally turning our belief away from Him (if that is possible).
Anyway, just throwing that in here for anyone who thinks they have reached a point of no return. There is no such point with God. Amazing, isn't it !