Bunny Trails

[Soloist]

And therein lies your answer to the question that is the subject of this thread: To Quote Bootstrap: "This thread is for discussing how we, as Christians who believe in creation as male and female, should relate to trans issues in the surrounding culture."

Sorry, Ken, but I don't think you have any idea what the answer is because you do not share our world view on this. Could you please go start a thread of your own?

Does your world view include the right to raise your own children as you see fit? And the right to be treated with respect and be left alone by the state regardless of what your particular beliefs are?

Does your world view respect others as you would want to be?

[Ken]

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Really? This actually happens to you in everyday life? In what context?

I teach at a big public HS in a purple suburb of a blue state and encounter 150 kids a day and interact with lots of other staff through email, meetings, etc. Some of whom are various flavors of LGBT. And this has never once come up for me, ever. I just refer to students and staff by their actual names. Not because I have some particular issue with pronouns. I don’t. I honestly just can’t be bothered to keep track of what people’s various pronouns are and find the whole thing tiresome and annoying in the same way that I find the use of “LatinX” or “BIPOC” to be annoying. I have a couple of kids who are probably some flavor of non-binary in that they are a little gender-transgressive in one way or another (but none that are obviously trans and transitioning). But I have no idea what their pronouns are or if they bother to identify via pronouns. I just use whatever name they want to be referred to and teach science. I make it a point not to talk to students about other students behind their backs so it honestly doesn’t come up.

[Bootstrap]

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Really? This actually happens to you in everyday life? In what context?

One person I was close to shut off the relationship over precisely this issue. If I don't actively use the pronouns and "support them in who they are", this person does not want to have a relationship.

I continue to pray for this person, and I made it clear that the door is always open from my side.

[NedFlanders]

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Really? This actually happens to you in everyday life? In what context?

I teach at a big public HS in a purple suburb of a blue state and encounter 150 kids a day and interact with lots of other staff through email, meetings, etc. Some of whom are various flavors of LGBT. And this has never once come up for me, ever. I just refer to students and staff by their actual names. Not because I have some particular issue with pronouns. I don’t. I honestly just can’t be bothered to keep track of what people’s various pronouns are and find the whole thing tiresome and annoying in the same way that I find the use of “LatinX” or “BIPOC” to be annoying. I have a couple of kids who are probably some flavor of non-binary in that they are a little gender-transgressive in one way or another (but none that are obviously trans and transitioning). But I have no idea what their pronouns are or if they bother to identify via pronouns. I just use whatever name they want to be referred to and teach science. I make it a point not to talk to students about other students behind their backs so it honestly doesn’t come up.

And here lies one of the biggest problems. It sounds like you are sexualizing children by saying any are “probably non-binary or gender-transgressive.” This is partly why Christians can have a hard time biting their tongues when innocent children are seen through perversion. It’s not easy to sit back and allow the abuse to happen because of some perverted adults if we love these children and want what is best for them. Not saying that I am active in really doing anything directly other than pointing to a better Way in life and practice. A Christian yearns for them to find the peace of God - the adult confusing children and the confused children.

[Bootstrap]

Starting a thread for Ken.

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Really? This actually happens to you in everyday life? In what context?

I teach at a big public HS in a purple suburb of a blue state and encounter 150 kids a day and interact with lots of other staff through email, meetings, etc. Some of whom are various flavors of LGBT. And this has never once come up for me, ever. I just refer to students and staff by their actual names. Not because I have some particular issue with pronouns. I don’t. I honestly just can’t be bothered to keep track of what people’s various pronouns are and find the whole thing tiresome and annoying in the same way that I find the use of “LatinX” or “BIPOC” to be annoying. I have a couple of kids who are probably some flavor of non-binary in that they are a little gender-transgressive in one way or another (but none that are obviously trans and transitioning). But I have no idea what their pronouns are or if they bother to identify via pronouns. I just use whatever name they want to be referred to and teach science. I make it a point not to talk to students about other students behind their backs so it honestly doesn’t come up.

I'm guessing here, but perhaps the difference your students have reason to believe you agree with their understanding of gender, so the problem doesn't come up in the same way?

[Bootstrap]

And here lies one of the biggest problems. It sounds like you are sexualizing children by saying any are “probably non-binary or gender-transgressive.” This is partly why Christians can have a hard time biting their tongues when innocent children are seen through perversion. It’s not easy to sit back and allow the abuse to happen because of some perverted adults if we love these children and want what is best for them. Not saying that I am active in really doing anything directly other than pointing to a better Way in life and practice.

Let's please not make this thread about Ken.

But the rest of this, I think, is precisely the problem I have. I think society, as a whole, is telling adolescent children at the peak of confusing hormones that they have to figure out their "identity", which is apparently all about sex and gender, and they should do that using social media, watching porn, and letting their feelings be their guide.

I think that's nonsense on several levels. First off, I think our identity is in Jesus Christ, not in gender or sex. I also think the sexual feelings of adolescents are not a safe place to turn for stable identity. I think a faith community that sees its identity in Jesus is vital.

But I want to be a safe person for children to talk to. Even if I strike them as different. Even if I don't understand "gender" the way that a lot of people do these days. Christianity is a minority religion. We have a different worldview. I'm OK with that.

[Ken]

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Really? This actually happens to you in everyday life? In what context?

I teach at a big public HS in a purple suburb of a blue state and encounter 150 kids a day and interact with lots of other staff through email, meetings, etc. Some of whom are various flavors of LGBT. And this has never once come up for me, ever. I just refer to students and staff by their actual names. Not because I have some particular issue with pronouns. I don’t. I honestly just can’t be bothered to keep track of what people’s various pronouns are and find the whole thing tiresome and annoying in the same way that I find the use of “LatinX” or “BIPOC” to be annoying. I have a couple of kids who are probably some flavor of non-binary in that they are a little gender-transgressive in one way or another (but none that are obviously trans and transitioning). But I have no idea what their pronouns are or if they bother to identify via pronouns. I just use whatever name they want to be referred to and teach science. I make it a point not to talk to students about other students behind their backs so it honestly doesn’t come up.

And here lies one of the biggest problems. It sounds like you are sexualizing children by saying any are “probably non-binary or gender-transgressive.” This is partly why Christians can have a hard time biting their tongues when innocent children are seen through perversion. It’s not easy to sit back and allow the abuse to happen because of some perverted adults if we love these children and want what is best for them. Not saying that I am active in really doing anything directly other than pointing to a better Way in life and practice. A Christian yearns for them to find the peace of God - the adult confusing children and the confused children.

These are teenagers not toddlers. And if you think society doesn’t sexualize teenagers or that they don’t sexualize themselves you haven’t visited a mall, watched a TV show, heard about prom or homecoming, or attended a HS football game.

[Ken]

Starting a thread for Ken.

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Really? This actually happens to you in everyday life? In what context?

I teach at a big public HS in a purple suburb of a blue state and encounter 150 kids a day and interact with lots of other staff through email, meetings, etc. Some of whom are various flavors of LGBT. And this has never once come up for me, ever. I just refer to students and staff by their actual names. Not because I have some particular issue with pronouns. I don’t. I honestly just can’t be bothered to keep track of what people’s various pronouns are and find the whole thing tiresome and annoying in the same way that I find the use of “LatinX” or “BIPOC” to be annoying. I have a couple of kids who are probably some flavor of non-binary in that they are a little gender-transgressive in one way or another (but none that are obviously trans and transitioning). But I have no idea what their pronouns are or if they bother to identify via pronouns. I just use whatever name they want to be referred to and teach science. I make it a point not to talk to students about other students behind their backs so it honestly doesn’t come up.

I'm guessing here, but perhaps the difference your students have reason to believe you agree with their understanding of gender, so the problem doesn't come up in the same way?

I doubt it. I’m on my spring break this week and sitting here in a coffee shop with my iPad waiting for the Costco tire center to swap out my snow tires. I looked at my class roster for the first time using the iOS iPad app for Canvas and see that it allows students to designate pronouns on their profile. They show up on the iPad app but not the Windows Chrome view that I normally use, so I didn’t even know this until just now. I don’t normally ever use my iPad for school business, I use my school laptop.

I count 7 students out of 145 who have even bothered to designate pronouns in their Canvas student profile. Three girls have put in she/her. One boy put in he/him. So those are what you would use anyway. There are two girls who put in they/them but are just ordinary girls from all outward appearances and use girl’s names. One is named Katharine and goes by Kitty. The other is named Eleanor and goes by Ellie. The last is a girl who put down she/them as her pronouns and is the most gender ambiguous (tomboyish) student I have. Her first name is Quinnlyn which is a gender-neutral name to begin with and she goes by Quinn which is also gender neutral. Shrug. Several other of the kids who somewhat gender ambiguous haven’t bothered to put any pronouns down in their student profile. So if they can’t be bothered, neither can I.

I honestly don’t think most of these kids care much at all what an old fogey science teacher such as myself thinks. I’m sure their social media profiles and friend groups are 100x more important to them than biology class.

[HondurasKeiser]

[temporal1]

Being a man is hard.

Yes. Thanks for saying it.

i admit, my view is not from insight, but from loss. losses.
husband, father, brother, grandfathers. uncles. brother in law. pastor. employers. friends. God designs us to carry on. He provides. but there is no substitute for what is missing.