Bunny Trails

[Joy]

Bottom line: They believe completely unbiblical heresy. I won't go so far as to say they are unsaved, or to say that they are not Christians. But their theology is un-Christian.

Show me a group that can't be labeled the same way by someone else..
I believe in what you'd call "completely unbiblical heresy" in that case, so that is what it is.

Doesn't matter that much what others label. What matters is what God says in His Word. That matters eternally.

And you can be wrong on some doctrines--which will have consequences--but with some truths you cannot be wrong and still be on your way to Heaven.

For instance, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. John 8:24

[MaxPC]

Maybe y'all would be interested in this article-
https://www.scribd.com/document/7239475 ... -m-Wachtel

Pre-existence, co-equality with God, and inherited immortality of man don't resonate well with me.

It's not the inherited immortality of man but rather the immortality of a man's soul that the Bible teaches. The immortal soul will go to heaven or to hell after the body dies and remain there for eternity.

I think it's interesting that author Wachtel appears to be Church of God General Conference; yet the COGGC teachings don't seem to concur with Wachtel in his paper on his points.

[KingdomBuilder]

I'm not in the business of trying to maneuver 3 separate fronts of people trying to convince me of things I don't agree with. Feel free to talk to me one on one, but these kind of conversations don't avail anything on this forum. Ever...
(As evidenced by sly implying that I'm damned for hell)

[MattY]

Maybe y'all would be interested in this article-
https://www.scribd.com/document/7239475 ... -m-Wachtel

Pre-existence, co-equality with God, and inherited immortality of man don't resonate well with me.

It's not the inherited immortality of man but rather the immortality of a man's soul that the Bible teaches. The immortal soul will go to heaven or to hell after the body dies and remain there for eternity.

Not, I would add, because a soul must be naturally or inherently immortal apart from God; for God sustains all things, nothing could exist without him. As Calvin said:

Had he even declared that the spirit of man perishes and comes to nothing, he would not have given any defence to their error. For when we say that the spirit of man is immortal, we do not affirm that it can stand against the hand of God, or subsist without his agency. Far from us be such blasphemy! But we say that it is sustained by his hand and blessing. Thus Irenaeus, who with us asserts the immortality of the spirit, (Irenaeus adv. Haeres. lib. 5,) wishes us, however, to learn that by nature we are mortal, and God alone immortal. And in the same place he says, "Let us not be inflated and raise ourselves up against God, as if we had life of ourselves; and let us learn by experience that we have endurance for eternity through his goodness, and not from our nature."

[Sudsy]

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. - Mathew 10:28

To me, this clearly teaches, that both the soul and the body can be destroyed in hell. Immortality is a gift for those who receive it. And for various other reasons, including the character of God as revealed in Jesus, puts this belief in a never ending state of torment in question.

Besides scriptural support for conditional immortality, how can any Christian who believes in never ending torment not be 24/7 begging people to repent ? It doesn't add up does it ?

[MaxPC]

Maybe y'all would be interested in this article-
https://www.scribd.com/document/7239475 ... -m-Wachtel

Pre-existence, co-equality with God, and inherited immortality of man don't resonate well with me.

It's not the inherited immortality of man but rather the immortality of a man's soul that the Bible teaches. The immortal soul will go to heaven or to hell after the body dies and remain there for eternity.

Not, I would add, because a soul must be naturally or inherently immortal apart from God; for God sustains all things, nothing could exist without him.

Agreed.

[ken_sylvania]

Besides scriptural support for conditional immortality, how can any Christian who believes in never ending torment not be 24/7 begging people to repent ? It doesn't add up does it ?

Are you suggesting that you wouldn't be bothered to get up out of your easy chair to save me from being bound hand and foot and cast into the lake of fire, because you would be comforting yourself that I will soon be burned up? That kind of an attitude seems rather callous as well.
All that aside, whether Christians actually believe in never ending torment and whether they act the way you think they should if they hold that belief has no bearing whatsoever on whether eternal torment exists and whether it is taught in the Bible.

[temporal1]

Maybe y'all would be interested in this article-
https://www.scribd.com/document/7239475 ... -m-Wachtel

Pre-existence, co-equality with God, and inherited immortality of man don't resonate well with me.

hmm. i had not understood this from you before. (i have not viewed your link.) you do not believe in the Holy Trinity? .. there have been threads on this, alone. some strongly disagree with the Holy Trinity, esp citing, “trinity,” as a word, is not found in scriptures.

I'm not in the business of trying to maneuver 3 separate fronts of people trying to convince me of things I don't agree with. Feel free to talk to me one on one, but these kind of conversations don't avail anything on this forum. Ever...
(As evidenced by sly implying that I'm damned for hell)

who is not speaking one by one?
i’m not seeing a conspiracy of even loose description. maybe i’m missing something.

It's not the inherited immortality of man but rather the immortality of a man's soul that the Bible teaches.

The immortal soul will go to heaven or to hell -after the body dies- and remain there for eternity.

Not, I would add, because a soul must be naturally or inherently immortal apart from God; for God sustains all things, nothing could exist without him.

Agreed.

when i arrived on MD, this is how i believed. our bodies die; according to God’s judgment, our spirits may live with Him in eternity.

however, there was a thread in which discussions of our physical bodies being resurrected and healed in eternity that caused me to reconsider.

not to mention, after my husband passed, one nght, i had a vibrant “visitation” dream, in which he appeared, in full health, restored, healed, “in the prime of his life,” that certainly made me wonder about how things will be .. since i read of these different understandings, i have wondered further.

the dream was brief, he did not speak. the message seemed to be, “i am healed, i am fine,”
then he was gone. in the dream, i felt the sad loss a second time, “i “knew” he would not return.
his illness had completely decimated his body, to see him restored was more than i can describe.
it was unlike any dream i’ve ever had. i don’t put much value on dreams. this one caught my attention. funny, it would have been his nature to let me know he was ok. what a memory!

i had not thought about the resurrection of our bodies before .. (i’m describing my experience, my questions, not trying to convince or make a case.) i do not claim to know. the topic has my attention.

we do not understand in full, and we are not meant to.
we are given what we need. not all we might want.

[temporal1]

to further bunny trail ..

i wrote above:
.. not to mention, after my husband passed, one nght, i had a vibrant “visitation” dream, in which he appeared, in full health, restored, healed, “in the prime of his life,” that certainly made me wonder about how things will be .. since i read of these different understandings, i have wondered further.

the dream was brief, he did not speak. the message seemed to be, “i am healed, i am fine,”
then he was gone. in the dream, i felt the sad loss a second time, “i “knew” he would not return.
his illness had completely decimated his body, to see him restored was more than i can describe.
it was unlike any dream i’ve ever had. i don’t put much value on dreams. this one caught my attention. funny, it would have been his nature to let me know he was ok. what a memory!” ..

this dream was not one i wanted.
i was overjoyed to see him so healed, he was “a vision” to behold!

but, i had accepted the loss, i trusted he was with God, i was in peace about it.
we both were, we had years together before he passed. we were at peace with it. as much as possible.

the dream (inadvertantly?) caused me to suffer a second loss, this one was hard. i wanted to be with him! either on earth or in heaven. it was unsettling. after years, i’m still unsettled by it!
however, dreams and visions, “visitations,” can be disturbing. in scriptures, weren’t they always unsettling?! they were unexpected messages of God’s will, not just fantasies of what is wanted ..

i’m duly unsettled.

at the time, i spoke to the Hospice Nurses that helped us in his last months. in 9-10 months, in and out of our home twice weekly, we got to know each other. i believe they gave me the label, “visitation dreams,” they had heard of them, for sure.

so. i just go on. i accept it as a gift. and, different from a gift.
possibly a bittersweet glimpse of what is beyond human understanding.

[Sudsy]

Besides scriptural support for conditional immortality, how can any Christian who believes in never ending torment not be 24/7 begging people to repent ? It doesn't add up does it ?

Are you suggesting that you wouldn't be bothered to get up out of your easy chair to save me from being bound hand and foot and cast into the lake of fire, because you would be comforting yourself that I will soon be burned up? That kind of an attitude seems rather callous as well.

I agree that any belief in torment for whatever period of time not followed by works supporting that belief is 'rather callous'. At this point I'm not convinced that after judgment, those who do not qualify will undergo the concept of a burning in a physical nature. If I look at the 'eternal fire' that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah, it appears to be very quick for everyone. Eternal, not in duration, but in power to consume that nothing can put it out.

What I do think is 'rather callous' is not sharing with others how to receive the free gift of eternal life. In my mind for certain reasons (i.e. fear of persecution) I am not treating others as I would like them to treat me if they knew the key to eternal life. How do we justify that ? Do we not appreciate this gift enough to want everyone to have it ? These are the kind of questions I would like to explore and hear what others think.

All that aside, whether Christians actually believe in never ending torment and whether they act the way you think they should if they hold that belief has no bearing whatsoever on whether eternal torment exists and whether it is taught in the Bible.

I agree here also. And that is why it is good to search the scriptures and not just take what has been passed down as correct. Some may be just glad to go with the majority view, yet in other areas they are keen on standing with the minority. To explain away words like 'destroy', 'destruction', 'perish', 'end', 'death', 'disintegration/corruption' or phrases like 'burned up', 'chopped down', 'ground up powder', 'cut to pieces' can also be seen as 'interpretive calisthenics'. I do believe it one thing to not share the gift of eternal life or one will not gain immortality then to believe that those I don't share the gift with will be in never ending torment. The latter is a much greater state to end up in and imo, extreme uncaring of those who believe that view.