Bunny Trails

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by PeterG »

Robert wrote:
PeterG wrote:I am struggling with some (but not most of) your thinking.
I thought I detected an edge in your comments. Good to know. Thanks for being honest.
Thank you for being someone I can be honest with. I do apologize if the edge is too sharp, or if I am otherwise lacking in grace, and I hope to grow in this area.
Robert wrote:Over 50% of people who live in New York City receive some kind of government support.
I suspect (though I should probably eat my own dog food and look it up) that the percentage is much higher than 50% for NYC and for any unit of local government you could identify, including the very reddest. You mentioned housing subsidies, welfare, and SS. Add to that the child tax credit, the EITC, the mortgage interest deduction (my favorite), other misc. tax credits and deductions, Medicare, Medicaid, farm subsidies, etc. (I suppose it could be argued that some of this is apples and oranges, but I see all apples. Different varieties of apples, maybe, but all apples.)
Robert wrote:I am not just talking federal. I am talking state and local. Although they do pay in a good bit, NYC is spending more than it is taking in with taxes.

Here is an interesting page with lots of details.

https://ballotpedia.org/New_York_state_ ... d_finances

It may be that the state is offsetting some of the costs of NYC. If so, that further shows that many of the big cities are not standing alone but drawing on others in state to support them. California has the same issue. Most the large cities have deficits. When a city is running a deficit, they are spending more than making. Most the time it is because there is a lot of subsidies the cities pay out.

California cities do similar. There are a lot of subsidies and government handouts in CA cities. If a city has a deficit, they are spending more than taking in and it has to be made up somehow. Often the state is subsidizing the city. If the state is, than rural citizens are paying for the cities so the state deficit will balance. This is what I was trying to get at.
First of all, you were talking federal. You said, "New York, Chicago and all of California are about broke and much of the rest of the country supports then with our part of the national debt." I believe that the Mises.org post I linked to indicates otherwise.

Second, it is not clear to me that NYC or California cities are net recipients of state money. I saw nothing in the link you provided that demonstrates this. As far as I can tell, the opposite appears to be true. (The report on which this article is based is here.)
Robert wrote:Because over 50% of people who live in cities are dependent on some form of government assistance, they will most likely vote for the groups who promise to maintain or increase these policies. This is why I think the national map looks like this:

Image

People in the cities are pro bigger government because they are used to government helping them. People in the rural areas are used to government taking from them or being almost non existent.
Federal spending per dollar paid in federal taxes, according to the Mises.org post (if you'll allow me to beat the horse some more just in case it's not dead yet):
Mississsippi—$4.70
West Virginia—$4.23
South Carolina—$3.05
Alabama—$3.02
Montana—$2.44
Idaho—$2.08
Kentucky—$2.05
national average—about $1.20 (the $0.20 is borrowed)
California—$1.18
New York—$0.96

I do not believe that these numbers support what you are saying.
Robert wrote:I am sorry, but I do not believe the DNC really cares so much about immigrants that they are pushing to take care of them. I think they see it as a new voting block to grow their party. I don't think the RNC cares about the rural people so much either. I think they see it as a strong voting block. I think the RNC plays the game of demonizing the big city liberals as much as the DNC demonizes rural people as baskets of deplorables, holding onto their bibles and guns.
I'm not quite that cynical, but I think there's a lot of truth to this.
Robert wrote:I think I told this story here once, but will state it again to make my point. I broke my arm a few years ago. I went to an orthopedic surgeon. he thought I needed to have it pinned. I said it was going to cost more then just wrapping it. He said, "Well you have insurance." He knew I was on Medicaid. I said, "Well someone has to pay for it." He looked at me strangely and then agreed that was true. I told him to just wrap it up. He did. It healed just fine.
:up: Our society needs more of this. The incentives around healthcare spending, in particular, are way out of whack.

TL;DR
As far as I can tell, the evidence indicates that urban areas such as NYC give more in federal and state taxes than they receive in federal and state spending. Many largely rural states that went for Trump, such as Mississippi and Montana, receive much more in federal spending than they pay in federal taxes.

EDIT: I see that Ken has posted much that is similar to what I say here. But I worked hard on this post, so I'm gonna post it anyway. :blah:
Last edited by PeterG on Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by PeterG »

Robert wrote:City has a deficit. State makes it up, or gives them a line of credit. Maybe I am looking at it too simply, but that is the core of my numbers.
The state's money comes from taxpayers, both urban and rural, and everything that I've seen indicates that urban taxpayers pay disproportionately. Can you demonstrate otherwise?
Robert wrote:Take a look at this. I found it and think it speaks to some of what I am saying. WARNING! It is Bill Orielly. He is evil because he is a conservative. About 2 minutes in, he starts talking about this.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/523954788900 ... show-clips
O'Reilly talks about expenditures, but net expenditures, which take tax receipts into account, paint a very different picture, as I believe I've shown. Also, I wonder how Mississippi would look if subjected to a similar analysis...
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
User avatar
Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 8522
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by Robert »

And the Mises.org page show percent. I am thinking more actual dollars. 50% of $10 is much less than 25% of 1000. I would have to dig deeper for those dollar amounts. Not up to it today.
PeterG wrote:I do apologize if the edge is too sharp
Not really an issue with me ... most the time. Never have an issue when someone calls me a bonehead, especially someone I suspect cares about me as a person. So feel free to call me boneheaded all you want.

I also think I was referring to the larger cities in CA, not the entire state, but may have not done a good job explaining that.

Let's just face it. Big cities are evil because I said so. Not sure why that is not enough evidence. Want more evidence? Big cities elect ... Democrats!! How could you refute that.

Of course, I distrust most Republicans too. 8-)
0 x
Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.
I think I am funnier than I really am.
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by PeterG »

Robert wrote:And the Mises.org page show percent. I am thinking more actual dollars.
Yes, the chart towards the top of the post shows federal spending as a percent of state GDP. I was referring to numbers from the chart farther down, which shows federal spending per dollar paid in federal taxes.
Robert wrote:Let's just face it. Big cities are evil because I said so. Not sure why that is not enough evidence. Want more evidence? Big cities elect ... Democrats!! How could you refute that.
Yes, O great kind sir! ;)
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by Josh »

A bigger question is why we view contributions to society in terms of money. Rural areas produce food, manufactured goods, clothing, timber, and other things we actually need.

Cities right now produce things like mortgage backed securities, collateralised debt obligations, Snapchat, Tinder, pornography, the drug trade, and other things we not only don't need, but that actually harm us.
0 x
User avatar
Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 8522
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by Robert »

Josh wrote:A bigger question is why we view contributions to society in terms of money. Rural areas produce food, manufactured goods, clothing, timber, and other things we actually need.

Cities right now produce things like mortgage backed securities, collateralised debt obligations, Snapchat, Tinder, pornography, the drug trade, and other things we not only don't need, but that actually harm us.
They also give us the arts, hospitals, research centers, technology, and many other things we all enjoy.

There is a balance between the two that needs to be healthy. Leveling mechanisms.

People in larger cities are used to government being a larger part of their life. It is a necessity. Someone has to haul off the trash and sewage. Someone has to police. Larger populations require more organization, thus more government. Rural areas need less and have less. So there is a natural constant tension between the two. The question is, when it it too much? And another question is how much should the rural areas support the urban areas since they do benefit from many parts of it through education, technology, arts, and structure.

I think that some big cities have gone too far in the way they tax and govern. They are old enough that they have now overregulated and over taxed. Many, not just urban, but many rural, have taken the philosophy that they should be able to judge when someone else has enough. This is a dangerous attitude. It leads to socialism. The government deciding for you in many aspects of life, like Ken Miller whether you can help a person leave the country with their child because they had it in a same sex relationship and became convinced that this was morally wrong.
0 x
Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.
I think I am funnier than I really am.
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by Josh »

Education: why we need "safe spaces" where men can wear dresses and also why men in dresses must be allowed in the ladies' room

Arts: R-rated films full of gore, obscenity, and no plot lines that are really original in years

Technology: More stuff to try to put rural people out of their jobs. (Strangely, this technology never obsoletes any multimillion dollar executive jobs - just lots of $10/hr folks)

Hospitals: Rural areas have hospitals, and rural areas had better health too and didn't need so many things like drugs to deal with lifestyle diseases which are endemic in cities.

The cities help us stuff ourselves until we are so unhealthy from overeating that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the most advanced medical care, heroically trying to save us, until we gracelessly expire.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by Josh »

Structure: Gorgeous buildings like this:

Image

It looks like a warehouse for people. In a sense, its appearance is entirely appropriate.
0 x
User avatar
Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 8522
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by Robert »

Josh wrote:Education: why we need "safe spaces" where men can wear dresses and also why men in dresses must be allowed in the ladies' room

Arts: R-rated films full of gore, obscenity, and no plot lines that are really original in years

Technology: More stuff to try to put rural people out of their jobs. (Strangely, this technology never obsoletes any multimillion dollar executive jobs - just lots of $10/hr folks)

Hospitals: Rural areas have hospitals, and rural areas had better health too and didn't need so many things like drugs to deal with lifestyle diseases which are endemic in cities.

The cities help us stuff ourselves until we are so unhealthy from overeating that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the most advanced medical care, heroically trying to save us, until we gracelessly expire.
Technology is somewhat neutral. It is how humanity and culture uses it.

Larger population centers do bring issues rural places do not, but rejecting it in its totality is an act of denial that many of the things we enjoy every day, like the internet, computers, electricity, heat, sanitation,and clean water we all developed in population centers. I have no desire to go back to cave living. Even saw mills were created to build up cities. Rural people just used logs, mud and rock. Feel free to live like that. I enjoy many things of progress. I also know that the building did not build itself. People built it.

The medical knowledge we use in rural hospitals were mostly learned from urban settings.

Not everyone thinks or wants to live the same way. Some people like city life. They have no desire to "till the soil."

While I agree there are lots of negatives from city culture, I have to be honest and say there are lots of positives also. Rejecting it because it is "not my way" is being very narrow minded.
0 x
Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.
I think I am funnier than I really am.
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5222
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by ohio jones »

Josh wrote:Structure: Gorgeous buildings like this:
Sure, pick the ugliest recent federal courthouse instead of more visually appropriate ones such as Canton
Image
or San Diego.
Image
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Post Reply