Bunny Trails

[Ken]

Regardless, you are parsing illegal/legal migrants. Fact is, in the past there was no welfare to attract migrants, legal or not.
Today, fact remains, that there are welfare benefits for legal migrants (and even some for illegal migrants) that are quite attractive, and are a powerful draw to the US.

Here is my original post. Do you see anything in here about illegal immigrants? Or do you see me writing about the welfare state and migrants?

It was one thing to welcome everyone to America back when it was the land of personal responsibility, with the understanding that it was up to each person to provide for themselves. Back then, immigrants cost society no money at all.
Now, America, Canada, Europe are all welfare states. Which really massively changes the calculation for the citizens. And the existence of this welfare also strengthens the drawing power of immigrants to come.

Welfare states are extremely attractive to people from destitute socialist societies for some reason.

I was responding to Thomas Munz's post in which he wrote: "Today is worst the government takes 40% of your income in taxes and give welfare to the illegal alliens "

In any event, how exactly do you think welfare motivates legal immigrants? What is the current waiting list to get into the green card lottery? Decades I think. The current wait list for family-sponsored immigrants is something like 8 years. The only sorts of legal immigrants who are easily admitted are J2 and H1B type visas for skilled workers, agricultural workers and the like. Or the millionaire visa types who come to invest money. And they are by definition coming to work.

[Josh]

California’s top marginal rate plus federal tax and Medicare surtax is 53.1%.

The argument was that it was all going to illegal aliens.

Tell us how much social security and Medicare taxes are going to illegal aliens. In fact, tell us if illegal aliens are eligible to receive even a penny of social security or medicare. In fact I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

If they’re lawful residents by age 65, they’re eligible for Medicare. It isn’t based on whether or not you paid in.

As far as Social Security goes, I can think of an example off the top of my head of someone whose dependents (who are citizens) are on SSDI/SSI despite both parents being illegals.

So yes, illegal aliens benefit greatly from America’s welfare programs, and more than they pay in.

[Josh]

Which forms of welfare are undocumented immigrants entitled to in this country?

Can they receive social security? YES, they would take their payroll history to SSA and ask to have it adjusted if an employer didn’t withhold it or it get withheld to the wrong account.
Can they receive medicare? YES, any lawful resident is eligible at age 65.
Can they receive medicaid? NO, at least not in my state, but their children born here can.
Can they receive Food Stamps? Ditto. They can gain eligibility
Via children.
Can they receive the earned income tax credit? YES. Not based on lawful residence.
Were they eligible for pandemic relief payments? YES. Based solely on whether you filed taxes in prior years.
Can they receive SSI? NO, but their children can.
Can they receive TANF? YES, provided they have any children born here.

Am I missing any major forms of welfare? YES. WIC doesn’t have lawful residence tests.

[RZehr]

Regardless, you are parsing illegal/legal migrants. Fact is, in the past there was no welfare to attract migrants, legal or not.
Today, fact remains, that there are welfare benefits for legal migrants (and even some for illegal migrants) that are quite attractive, and are a powerful draw to the US.

Here is my original post. Do you see anything in here about illegal immigrants? Or do you see me writing about the welfare state and migrants?

It was one thing to welcome everyone to America back when it was the land of personal responsibility, with the understanding that it was up to each person to provide for themselves. Back then, immigrants cost society no money at all.
Now, America, Canada, Europe are all welfare states. Which really massively changes the calculation for the citizens. And the existence of this welfare also strengthens the drawing power of immigrants to come.

Welfare states are extremely attractive to people from destitute socialist societies for some reason.

I was responding to Thomas Munz's post in which he wrote: "Today is worst the government takes 40% of your income in taxes and give welfare to the illegal alliens "

In any event, how exactly do you think welfare motivates legal immigrants? What is the current waiting list to get into the green card lottery? Decades I think. The current wait list for family-sponsored immigrants is something like 8 years. The only sorts of legal immigrants who are easily admitted are J2 and H1B type visas for skilled workers, agricultural workers and the like. Or the millionaire visa types who come to invest money. And they are by definition coming to work.

I imagine that once a migrant, legal or not, benefits from a welfare handout, that they do not do their utmost to keep that a secret from their friends and family back in the homeland. And when a poor person in Guatemala hears that his friend or family in the US is getting for free what he can barely afford in Guatemala, I don’t think that motivates him to stay in Guatemala.

[Ken]

Regardless, you are parsing illegal/legal migrants. Fact is, in the past there was no welfare to attract migrants, legal or not.
Today, fact remains, that there are welfare benefits for legal migrants (and even some for illegal migrants) that are quite attractive, and are a powerful draw to the US.

Here is my original post. Do you see anything in here about illegal immigrants? Or do you see me writing about the welfare state and migrants?

Welfare states are extremely attractive to people from destitute socialist societies for some reason.

I was responding to Thomas Munz's post in which he wrote: "Today is worst the government takes 40% of your income in taxes and give welfare to the illegal alliens "

In any event, how exactly do you think welfare motivates legal immigrants? What is the current waiting list to get into the green card lottery? Decades I think. The current wait list for family-sponsored immigrants is something like 8 years. The only sorts of legal immigrants who are easily admitted are J2 and H1B type visas for skilled workers, agricultural workers and the like. Or the millionaire visa types who come to invest money. And they are by definition coming to work.

I imagine that once a migrant, legal or not, benefits from a welfare handout, that they do not do their utmost to keep that a secret from their friends and family back in the homeland. And when a poor person in Guatemala hears that his friend or family in the US is getting for free what he can barely afford in Guatemala, I don’t think that motivates him to stay in Guatemala.

I just had a roofing company bid on a roof replacement for my house. When I was chatting with the owner I discovered they are from Guatemala. When he talks with family from back home, what do you think the conversation is about? I imagine that it is about the wages and opportunities that exist for work in the US and not about the paltry food stamps that one might be eligible if one isn't working.

What handouts do you think immigrants are actually getting here in the US, legal or otherwise?

[RZehr]

I was responding to Thomas Munz's post in which he wrote: "Today is worst the government takes 40% of your income in taxes and give welfare to the illegal alliens "

In any event, how exactly do you think welfare motivates legal immigrants? What is the current waiting list to get into the green card lottery? Decades I think. The current wait list for family-sponsored immigrants is something like 8 years. The only sorts of legal immigrants who are easily admitted are J2 and H1B type visas for skilled workers, agricultural workers and the like. Or the millionaire visa types who come to invest money. And they are by definition coming to work.

I imagine that once a migrant, legal or not, benefits from a welfare handout, that they do not do their utmost to keep that a secret from their friends and family back in the homeland. And when a poor person in Guatemala hears that his friend or family in the US is getting for free what he can barely afford in Guatemala, I don’t think that motivates him to stay in Guatemala.

I just had a roofing company bid on a roof replacement for my house. When I was chatting with the owner I discovered they are from Guatemala. When he talks with family from back home, what do you think the conversation is about? I imagine that it is about the wages and opportunities that exist for work in the US and not about the paltry food stamps that one might be eligible if one isn't working.

What handouts do you think immigrants are actually getting here in the US, legal or otherwise?

I’m pro immigration. But to pretend that welfare isn’t real, isn’t a draw, is too far outside of reality to bother discussing it. Sure, maybe a minority of them get it. But let’s not pretend that it isn’t available. There are many poor migrant women, moms, and children who aren’t roofers.

Some might put on roofs. Great, we need roofs put on. Others are like this young chap who was in the news recently:

[Ken]

I imagine that once a migrant, legal or not, benefits from a welfare handout, that they do not do their utmost to keep that a secret from their friends and family back in the homeland. And when a poor person in Guatemala hears that his friend or family in the US is getting for free what he can barely afford in Guatemala, I don’t think that motivates him to stay in Guatemala.

I just had a roofing company bid on a roof replacement for my house. When I was chatting with the owner I discovered they are from Guatemala. When he talks with family from back home, what do you think the conversation is about? I imagine that it is about the wages and opportunities that exist for work in the US and not about the paltry food stamps that one might be eligible if one isn't working.

What handouts do you think immigrants are actually getting here in the US, legal or otherwise?

I’m pro immigration. But to pretend that welfare isn’t real, isn’t a draw, is too far outside of reality to bother discussing it. Sure, maybe a minority of them get it. But let’s not pretend that it isn’t available. There are many poor migrant women, moms, and children who aren’t roofers.

Some might put on roofs. Great, we need roofs put on. Others are like this young chap who was in the news recently:

Look, I don't deny that we are seeing a flood of illegal immigrants crossing our borders. I just question whether it is welfare programs that they aren't legally entitled to in the first place that is drawing them.

I think 99% of the draw is actually is our broken asylum system (rather than welfare benefits) and the knowledge that it takes years to process asylum claims. That is 100% the fault of our broken Congress that continually fails to sufficiently fund out immigration courts such that they can dispense with asylum claims at the border.

No reason at all why we couldn't drop a billion dollars into the project and set up hundreds of new immigration courts in portable offices all along the border and get people in-and-out of asylum hearings in a week tops before they stray more than 100 meters inside the border. But Congress would rather play shutdown games than do that sort of thing. And, of course Trump is the toxic and malignant force that is undermining current proposals because he thinks he gains politically by more chaos.

[RZehr]

My argument is that if the welfare state didn’t exist, the civilians would be more likely to welcome migrants. Or at least be more apathetic.

And if they were more welcoming to migrants, it wouldn’t be such an obtuse political football.

And if it wasn’t such a political problem, maybe we would have a better, legal, open, immigration system.

Migrant welfare isn’t here nor there for myself. I think there shouldn’t be fraud anywhere in the country at any level. But if it’s legal, and needed, meet the need.
I’m just making an observation on the different dynamics today than in history.

[Ken]

My argument is that if the welfare state didn’t exist, the civilians would be more likely to welcome migrants. Or at least be more apathetic.

And if they were more welcoming to migrants, it wouldn’t be such an obtuse political football.

And if it wasn’t such a political problem, maybe we would have a better, legal, open, immigration system.

Migrant welfare isn’t here nor there for myself. I think there shouldn’t be fraud anywhere in the country at any level. But if it’s legal, and needed, meet the need.
I’m just making an observation on the different dynamics today than in history.

Objectively speaking we know that immigrants (legal and otherwise) pay more in tax dollars than they receive in benefits by a whopping margin. Every study on the topic comes to this conclusion. Mainly because immigrants trend young and our welfare state benefits favor the elderly.

Also we know that the net effect of immigration is to raise the national GDP rather than lower it. In other words, immigrants make us all more wealthy on average.

That said, I think immigration will always be a lightning rod issue for political reasons rather than any rational reason. Every side will look to leverage the issue for political gain, even if all the political fighting is a net negative for the country.

[Josh]

Objectively speaking we know that immigrants (legal and otherwise) pay more in tax dollars than they receive in benefits by a whopping margin. Every study on the topic comes to this conclusion. Mainly because immigrants trend young and our welfare state benefits favor the elderly.

And eventually this flood of immigrants will be elderly. Who’s going to pay for them then?

Also we know that the net effect of immigration is to raise the national GDP rather than lower it. In other words, immigrants make us all more wealthy on average.

In other words, they drive up rents and the cost of housing and cost of living. That isn’t a win.