Whole Body Health

[Wade]

Placebos are scientific. Scientists may be able to predict who will experience the placebo effect. Our minds do affect how we experience the world. This has been researched and documented in many different fields. For example, food packaging affects how the food inside the packaging tastes.

I always thought placebos were used for research. I wasn't aware of family doctors prescribing placebos. Is this a thing?

I don't think placebos belongs on Roger's list. But even so, I don't think he was intending his list to be comprehensive.

Doctors do not prescribe placebos.

When testing a new drug, some people will be given placebos and some will be given the drug. The drug company is upfront and honest about this - but the patients don’t know which one they are getting. Then the drug company has to figure out if their drug works better than a placebo.

I have heard a couple nurses admit they know they were giving people sugar pills. Doctors do prescribe placebo's as far as I have been told, they don't want people to know that though.

I still stand that the world of conventional medicine enforces dishonesty. In Canada it is illegal for them to tell you the ingredients in your children's vaccines. So they can't even tell you why there is anti-freeze, mercury, formaldehyde, polysorbates, etc., etc. in these things. They are not even allowed to be honest why they put drops in your babies eyes. And on and on.

So why do some many jump on the band wagon against alternative medicine and not say a word about the lying in conventional medicine?
Is witchcraft worse than lying?

Answer:
Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sorcery and lying are listed in the scripture here together as both worthy of the lake of fire.

[Josh]

I have heard a couple nurses admit they know they were giving people sugar pills. Doctors do prescribe placebo's as far as I have been told, they don't want people to know that though.

If a doctor or nurse does that, they are doing something the medical profession condemns. This is no different than people who are doctors or nurses opening "natural healing" clinics and making wild health claims.

I'm sure it does happen, but giving placebos is NOT part of conventional medicine.

I still stand that the world of conventional medicine enforces dishonesty.

That's an extreme position to take.

I take the stand that alternative medicine enforces dishonesty. But these are just opinions that you and I hold - not absolute truth.

In Canada it is illegal for them to tell you the ingredients in your children's vaccines.

Is this actually true? As far as I can tell, vaccine manufacturers do disclose ingredients, claims by anti-vaccine groups notwithstanding.

So they can't even tell you why there is anti-freeze, mercury, formaldehyde, polysorbates, etc., etc. in these things. They are not even allowed to be honest why they put drops in your babies eyes. And on and on.

Yes they can. There are plenty of explanations for why things like PEG (popularly called "antifreeze", but used in a wide variety of things and is safe and non-toxic), formaldehyde (also safe in low doses and occurring naturally in food in small amounts), and so on exist in vaccine formulations.

Learning about the details of why would require a significant amount of biological and medical training.

So why do some many jump on the band wagon against alternative medicine and not say a word about the lying in conventional medicine?

I would hesitate to just jump and say people who practice conventional medicine lie. There is dishonesty and lack of truth in certain areas, but overall, the profession is focused on evidence and on rooting out fraud. That's why alternative medicine gets such a bad rap: it's basically the wing of medicine where wild claims happen and there is no established culture to root out fraud and blatant dishonesty.

Is witchcraft worse than lying?

Answer:
Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sorcery and lying are listed in the scripture here together as both worthy of the lake of fire.

[/quote]

Claiming that conventional medicine is worthy of the lake of fire is a wild, outlandish claim.

But if we're going there, I would argue that many people promoting alternative medicine are lying, are frauds, are dishonest, and some cross over into sorcerer. Some even end up killing people. Is that worthy of the lake of fire?

[Wade]

I have heard a couple nurses admit they know they were giving people sugar pills. Doctors do prescribe placebo's as far as I have been told, they don't want people to know that though.

If a doctor or nurse does that, they are doing something the medical profession condemns. This is no different than people who are doctors or nurses opening "natural healing" clinics and making wild health claims.

I'm sure it does happen, but giving placebos is NOT part of conventional medicine.

Nonetheless medical professionals have admitted to me they do it.

I still stand that the world of conventional medicine enforces dishonesty.

That's an extreme position to take.

I take the stand that alternative medicine enforces dishonesty. But these are just opinions that you and I hold - not absolute truth.

In Canada it is illegal for them to tell you the ingredients in your children's vaccines.

Is this actually true? As far as I can tell, vaccine manufacturers do disclose ingredients, claims by anti-vaccine groups notwithstanding.

Maybe this has changed, that is great if the conventional medical world is making steps to being honest.

So they can't even tell you why there is anti-freeze, mercury, formaldehyde, polysorbates, etc., etc. in these things. They are not even allowed to be honest why they put drops in your babies eyes. And on and on.

Yes they can. There are plenty of explanations for why things like PEG (popularly called "antifreeze", but used in a wide variety of things and is safe and non-toxic), formaldehyde (also safe in low doses and occurring naturally in food in small amounts), and so on exist in vaccine formulations.

Then why were they never honesty with me until I researched and confronted them on it? Then they blush and are unwilling to talk except say they can't be honest in order to protect themselves and others.

Learning about the details of why would require a significant amount of biological and medical training.

Just like being a leader in church would require theology college I guess. This attitude is the type that the original Anabaptist's rejected.

So why do some many jump on the band wagon against alternative medicine and not say a word about the lying in conventional medicine?

I would hesitate to just jump and say people who practice conventional medicine lie. There is dishonesty and lack of truth in certain areas, but overall, the profession is focused on evidence and on rooting out fraud. That's why alternative medicine gets such a bad rap: it's basically the wing of medicine where wild claims happen and there is no established culture to root out fraud and blatant dishonesty.

Maybe we define lying differently?

Is witchcraft worse than lying?

Answer:
Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sorcery and lying are listed in the scripture here together as both worthy of the lake of fire.

Claiming that conventional medicine is worthy of the lake of fire is a wild, outlandish claim.

No, implying I said conventional medicine is worthy of the lake of fire is a wild, outlandish claim. I was referencing scripture about lying.

But if we're going there, I would argue that many people promoting alternative medicine are lying, are frauds, are dishonest, and some cross over into sorcerer. Some even end up killing people. Is that worthy of the lake of fire?

I agree and yes according to scripture it is.

[RZehr]

I had a family member who was having mental problems. All the medicines the doctors gave seemed to help, except the family member would quit taking them because of the side effects. The doctors gave another pill, did not tell the patient, but did tell the parent that this pill was nothing but a placebo or sugar pill, and not to tell the patient. I'm not sure what sort of lie the doctor told the patient. Interestingly enough, the patient did quite well on this placebo pill. This was about 10ish years ago and the patient is no longer on the placebo.

So I do know that one conventional doctor prescribed a placebo. Not sure about the ethics of what happened there about not telling the patient, but telling the parent. The patient was an adult.

[RZehr]

ignore the dots. I'm just using them for spacers.

5. How to Discern Whether a Remedy is Occultic—3 symptoms
........a. There is no explanation about its effectiveness that makes sense scientifically.
........b. The healing power is not dependent on Christ or on His Word.
........c. Those who promote the therapy tie its effectiveness to some sort of power which, when
............analyzed, proves to be a non-physical (and therefore spiritual) power.
..................i. Vital Energy or Vital Force
..................ii. Universal Energy
..................iii. Innate Intelligence
..................iv. Healing Force or Life Force
..................v. Electricity or Electromagnetic Energy
..................vi. Meridians

6. Practices Having Characteristics of Witchcraft
........a. Reflexology
........b. Applied Kinesiology (Muscle-testing)
........c. Acupuncture & Acupressure
........d. Homeopathy (with potentization)
........e. Radiesthesia (pendulums, water-witching, etc.)
........f. Yoga, Meditation, Hypnotherapy
........g. Powwowing
........h. Pain-pulling
........i. Iridology
........j. Aromatherapy
........k. Ouija Boards

I think you two are confusing symptoms with proofs. Chest pain is a symptom of a heart attack, but not every chest pain indicates a heart attack. Nowhere in his handout does Hertzler say that anything we can't understand is automatically witchcraft.

Maybe the two of you would like to give us your own list of the symptoms of witchcraft. Christians are to avoid witchcraft - what does it look like, and what exactly should we be avoiding?

You are exactly right. If you just look at the list and slow down, it isn't one list. This forum doesn't seem to like indentation, but I’ve tried to correct the format to match the original format. This was only point 5 & 6 of a talk.
The first part with Roman numerals don't have a title because they are sub points under 5.c, as examples of the sort of power that some people attribute healing power.
The second list doesn't say it is a comprehensive and definitive list, it says "Practices Having Characteristics of Witchcraft". In other words if you are involved in these, you ought to really take a step back and spiritually and carefully evaluate what you are doing.

Also, It is good to realize what this talk actually was on. It is on “Anabaptist Divinations & Sorcery”. This talk is not a talk on comparing alternative medicine with conventional. It is not about the pros or cons of conventional medicine vs alternative or natural medicine.

I’d recommend actually listening to the talk for a better and more accurate perspective and using the handout as a tool to follow along.

Audio: Anabaptist Divination & Sorcery - Roger Hertzler http://www.anabaptistslive.com/MP3s/AIC ... rtzler.mp3

(Handout) Anabaptist Divination & Sorcery: User Friendly? http://www.anabaptistslive.com/docs/han ... orcery.pdf

“It’s a problem when Gods people don’t know what witchcraft is, but it is a bigger problem when Gods people don’t care what witchcraft is.” – Paraphrase from talk.

[Wade]

Listened to his sermon just now.
I think he is incredibly more balanced than how I took the little quote to be presented. The whole context is nice.

Sorry for calling Roger and others unbalanced, biased, etc. I was wrong.

I do believe we still need to be careful to call something supernatural because it can't be understood scientifically. We could look back at most advances in society today before our modern knowledge, theories, and science and could see most all technologies today as supernatural.

[KingdomBuilder]

I don't really have any dogs in the fight or points to prove.. seems I was taken very seriously?? I thought it was obvious that my post was in humor. I don't recommend any Christians throw away their pills (welll................. maybe some)