Whole Body Health

[Wade]

So would you call giving a 2 year old a vaccine for Hepatitis B which can only be contracted through sex and dirty needles(drug use) when the vaccine looses it's effectiveness after 10 years not fishy?
If I followed your logic then I would do right to stay way clear of vaccines.

I wouldn't call it fishy at all. I'd assume someone high up put thought and discussion into whether society should or shouldn't be recommended this vaccine, and they decided society should. I don't believe the people on the ground administering the vaccine puts much thought into the rightness or wrongness of it. They probably are just there to do their job the best they can with the information and recommendations they are given, without giving much consideration to individual cases.
I am very pro-vaccine, yet I too refuse to give my children Hepatitis B. I see how it may be a good idea for some people but not for how we live and believe, so I think it is unnecessary. At the same time, if it were forced upon me, I'd have more concern about being forced, than the shot itself. I don't think I would have major health concerns about it.
I didn’t get a yellow fever vaccination either until I wanted to visit a country where it was a requirement to have it.

My wife declined the chicken pox vaccine for one of our children. After the nurse was done my wife looked on the slip and asked why it said that our son got the chicken pox vaccine when she just declined it? The nurse said, "Yeah, I know, but I just thought it would be better if he had it." That's forced to me.
And remember it is illegal in Canada for them to tell you the ingredients. Even the Public health nurse had a problem with that. And yes, JM I have researched all the ingredients thoroughly in the past.
Maybe we have just experienced some things that are not normal for others? But it is almost every time we go to the doctor we could tell a story...

Another point of reference I would like to share: I often have people that know me a bit often willingly share very confident information - like their depression, alcoholism, drug use, whatever. Some of these people are being very mislead that doctors and drugs will be their savior. They know where I stand and I will share Christ but yet they keep talking... The last time one of my friends got off the booze with conventional drugs he was okay for a bit but since he is back on I really think he needs to come out with the power of Christ to truly make it. I think conventional medicine is helping for him to stay alive at times but it has never given him life.

[GaryK]

Drs get these things wrong all the time too though- I hear it quite often- working in a drug store and knowing enough people who were misdiagnosed- well, why do you think doctors have to carry the kind of insurance they do?

My husband's eyes were permanently damaged by those doing surgery on them (and no, we did not sue) he had diabetic retinopathy so that was not the doctor's fault- but surgery and a scar blocking his view from that point on from the surgery-
things can go wrong or get misdiagnosed by conventional as well-
Probably people's personal experiences is influencing a lot of these opinions here-

Yes, it is surprising that our life expectancy and quality of life is any better than in third-world countries where they don't have MDs to constantly make mistakes.

I think clean water alone has more credit to life expectancy and quality of life than any doctors if you research this thoroughly... And then there is clean food, sanitary washroom conidtions, avoidance of sex, drugs, etc., etc. When I researched this by the end - the help from medicine for life expectancy and quality of life was surprising low. I think promoting healthy living is more Christlike than giving shots or looking to doctors who get recommendations from companies making huge profits from selling drugs...

Having lived 6 years in two different 3rd world countries I really wish it was as simple as promoting healthy living and having access to clean water. These are both important pieces of a much bigger puzzle but these alone won't come close to solving third world health problems. These important pieces of the puzzle don't treat malaria, yellow fever, typhoid, hepatitis and other maladies that a good healthcare system is needed for.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I believe you, that they are serious, I really do. But what is your answer to this -

What about Meningococcal vaccinations? Or HPV vaccines? Is it really that important to have all these too? At what point is it actually okay not to have a yellow fever vaccine?

Are you and your children and grandchildren completely up to date on all the vaccines available? If not, what determines what ones are done? Do you recommend everyone in good health getting all the vaccines available? Are there any that you think are okay to not have?
I’m no expert so I and my wife just sort of do what is required and not much beyond that. Pretty consistent with how we approach doctoring in general I guess.
For example, we try to be judicious with our prenatal care as well since we are actually paying the bill. Seems like doctors want to run every test terribly often, and I’m not that interested in paying off their equipment by myself. I try to ascertain to the best of my ability how important the doctor really believes the test to be. I explain that I’m paying the bill so they understand that. If they act like we are okay skipping something, we skip it. It they look at me as if I have horns growing out of my head for asking, then we will probably take their recommendations.

Remember I am married to a public health nurse. For overseas travel we consistently follow the CDC recommendations. They are generally quite up to date.

My children came along too late for the HPV vaccine. In general if it were available they would have gotten it. You never know how faithful their spouse will be, or if he had a “past”. Meningitis can be rampant in dorm situations so yes, if there is a possibility your children are headed to Bible school or college. My gals got it. It is required by some schools.

In general most physicians do not make a profit by running tests. With the exception of a few limited point of service tests, they are sent to an outside lab that they cannot own a part of. The Stark law of about 20 years ago put a stop to that. There are a few limited “safe harbor “ exceptions but in general that kind of stuff is done for.

What there is is a fair amount of defensive medicine, particularly in the OB-GYN realm. And yes, there were tests that we turned down, even though we have really good insurance, and were not paying for it. If a tests sole purpose was to provide information to encourage an abortion, than we declined it. Of course we know which is which. I wish I had some easy “cheat sheet.”

I hope this is helpful. I may be a bit on the strident side, but I have seen far more than I ever should have, including polio, simply by being there.

J.M.

[Valerie]

Thank you for your insight and counsel on this.
Unfortunately what you say is true- people have made their own physicians like god in their life. I am not ruling out the value of physicians at all- just in their 'text book' only knowledge- the approach- treat the symptoms- prescribe medications- sometimes harmful ones- don't try to educate the patient on how THEY can improve their own health by what they eat- nutrition and supplements are not something doctors care to educate or advise on- it's not their way, that's not what they went to school for.

Valerie, IMO this is pretty broad-brushed reaction - especially the part about people making gods out of their doctors. These are common arguments used by anti-medical people. Do you really believe doctors do not get training on the importance of healthy lifestyles? Do you really believe that doctors never advise their patients to exercise more, to lose weight, to eat less sugar, to stop smoking, to stop drinking excessively, etc., etc.? I think practically all of the doctors I've been to (not many) would have talked about the importance of their patients eating healthily and exercising more. I know the one was very strong on this. One of the biggest problems I have with statements like these is that when those who embrace this view get really sick they go to the very doctors they otherwise disparage for help. Why?

Forgive me if I came across anti--medical please- had it not been for conventional medicine, my husband would probably be with the Lord now- he was diabetic, on kidney dialysis- in & out of the hospital- we are grateful for what was made available to him-
And we BOTH go to our conventional doctor- and we love him! Do we get real advise from him on how we can possibly get to the root of our issues naturally, supplement, etc? No. Always- prescriptions are the protocol- of course!

However as we are learning natural ways to attack the first sign of cold or flue or sinus infection, etc- we have been able to stay off of antibiotics.. Granted- the Lord has blessed me with a pretty good immune system- I think I've needed an antibiotic once in 17 years- now at the first sign of things we know what to take plus we do things we know help build our immune system up to begin with- and my husband takes a supplement and for the first time, he avoided his yearly seasonal sinus infection in the fall- undoubtedly, without exception- he got sick every fall! We know it's not good to take antibiotics for several reasons-

As was posted- if people would educate themselves- they can help themselves- my objection, since you mentioned the broad brush- is that that broad brush is used against holistic & naturopathic treatments-
We have 2 doctors in our town that USED to be regular doctors and are now naturopathic- as has been mentioned- some are realizing there's a need for BOTH- My mother is reading a book right now by a physician who now sees what he learned in books is not 'always' the way to go- so he's helping people in more natural ways. This is not rare- but to imply there's any form of 'occult' attached to these people is simply phobia and I understand that. However- I think people need to learn more. My friend who was severely damaged by Cipro antibiotic's husband sounded originally like many that posted here- association naturopaths with quackery- he sure has changed his position!

[Josh]

Cipro is not something doctors just prescribe left and right and the dangers are well known. Conventional medicine generally avoids using antibiotics if possible. My doctor advises me as such; they’re a last resort when all else fails.

With that said, without antibiotics, we would basically revert to the early 1800s. Many diseases and pandemics would be untreatable.

[appleman2006]

The long and short of it is that most of us have no idea how privileged we are to live in the 21st century in a 1st world country and have access to the medical expertise we do. The things we are discussing and debating here prove that.
Very few of us know anything about rampant disease and the scare that puts on a community or a whole country. Now days the whole country goes into terror mode when a few dozen people get sick from one thing in one area especially if there is no known cure.

Why God chose to put us in a time when life expectancy is longer than it has been at least in the past 3 to 4 thousand years I have no idea. Why he placed most of us in countries where we have better access to healthcare than most of the world I also do not know.

Does this mean we should not continually look to do better. Of course not. But I am trying to put some perspective on this. A bit of thankfulness for what we have may well be in order.

[GaryK]

The long and short of it is that most of us have no idea how privileged we are to live in the 21st century in a 1st world country and have access to the medical expertise we do. The things we are discussing and debating here prove that.
Very few of us know anything about rampant disease and the scare that puts on a community or a whole country. Now days the whole country goes into terror mode when a few dozen people get sick from one thing in one area especially if there is no known cure.

Why God chose to put us in a time when life expectancy is longer than it has been at least in the past 3 to 4 thousand years I have no idea. Why he placed most of us in countries where we have better access to healthcare than most of the world I also do not know.

Does this mean we should not continually look to do better. Of course not. But I am trying to put some perspective on this. A bit of thankfulness for what we have may well be in order.

So true Appleman!! The feeling of helplessness I had in not being able to do more will forever make me grateful for the medical system we are privileged to have. I say this even with all that is wrong with our system.

[RZehr]

My wife declined the chicken pox vaccine for one of our children.

My wife declines the chicken pox vaccine too. I think she thinks they are inoculated better if they get chicken pox, than if they only have the vaccine. I think it is required for school though, so if they don't have it by school age we would get the vaccine.

[KingdomBuilder]

How to Discern Whether a Remedy is Occultic—3 symptoms
a. There is no explanation about its effectiveness that makes sense scientifically.
Stupid reasoning... this implies that all truth is dependent on substantiation before it becomes truth. This is why people thought electricity was witchcraft, too. Today's "witchcraft" is often just an area that hasn't been thoroughly studied yet (largely due to a lack of profit potential)
b. The healing power is not dependent on Christ or on His Word.
Okay..... there goes the ENTIRE western pharmacological system. Flush those pills and don't renew those prescriptions, ye Saints.
c. Those who promote the therapy tie its effectiveness to some sort of power which, when
analyzed, proves to be a non-physical (and therefore spiritual) power.
Laying of hands, anyone??
i. Vital Energy or Vital Force
ii. Universal Energy
iii. Innate Intelligence
iv. Healing Force or Life Force
v. Electricity or Electromagnetic Energy
vi. Meridians
vii. Chi Chai is witchy, too
6. Practices Having Characteristics of Witchcraft
a. Reflexology
b. Applied Kinesiology (Muscle-testing)
c. Acupuncture & Acupressure
Not rooted in the Western scientific method and medical mindset? MUST BE SORCERY!!!!!
d. Homeopathy (with potentization)
e. Radiesthesia (pendulums, water-witching, etc.)
f. Yoga, Meditation, Hypnotherapy
g. Powwowing
h. Pain-pulling
i. Iridology
j. Aromatherapy
Shhh... don't tell all those Old Testament temple-goers. Those witchy Jews with their psychoactive incense
k. Ouija Boards

[Josh]

Old Testament people were ridiculously superstitious. I mean, King Saul decided to conjure up Samuel from the dead. And the Israelites were tempted to go to sorcerers all the time.

The New Testament is noted for its lack of pagan practices like divination amongst New Testament believers, and the rebukes given to those practicing such things, such as Bar-jesus.