Global Warning/Climate Change

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
RZehr
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by RZehr »

PeterG wrote:
RZehr wrote:Boot, when we have scientist telling us that the world is a production of evolution we tune them out. When "they" say that we are the same as monkeys, that homosexuality is okay, a fetus is fine to kill etc., we no longer assume their science is good and credibility once shot is awfully difficult to resuscitate.
These objections to the scientific consensus/so-called scientific consensus apply equally to its detractors. Show me a source of information about climate change—regardless of its stance on the subject—and I will show you significant issues on which we and that source would profoundly disagree. It is not at all clear to me that these detractors share my core beliefs to a greater extent than non-detractors do, or that detractors have retained more credibility than non-detractors.
Sure, that is absolutely right. But I’m not a detractor. Finding myself agreeing with liberals on war, or conservatives on a lack of fear of future weather patterns doesn’t mean I think either is more credible on the whole.
I’m not saying the scientist are wrong at all in their calculations. I am completely unequipped to evaluate that in any meaningful way. Maybe they are right, we Christians ought to be experts on and have a responsibility to know about things above not things below. But I know that God is sovereign and if sea levels do rise, well I’ll just claim Genesis 9:11. Our confidence isn’t in any climate past, present or future.
PeterG wrote: A scientific argument should be evaluated on its own merits, in its own terms, and the general failure to treat climate change in this way is disheartening (though not surprising).
It’s really difficult to accurately evaluate something on its merits when we are completely unable to do so.
The difficulty is that we are being asked to accept & believe something that we cannot verify one way or another.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Bootstrap »

Wade wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
Wade wrote:One point is, that when these climate change scientists get serious about their own footprint it will likely have a bigger impact on those listening to actually do something too.
I think they are calculating that the impact of their work benefits the environment more than the impact of their personal travel costs it. It would be very difficult to collaborate with scientists around the world, speak at various universities, be present at conferences, and provide advice to governments working on this without travel.
So, the people advocating changing the way we live are exempt from accountability of their impact because of us non-scientists following there advice and lessening our impact?
No.

It's the same kind of math that I would do if I could speak at a conference to convince people to give money to a cause I care about. The cost of traveling to the conference could have been donated if I did not travel, but the donations of the people at the conference outweigh the cost my travel.

In this case, the cost involves carbon footprints, not just money, but it is the same principle.

Of course, there are charities where the expenses outweigh the value of the travel. You have to do those calculations. I don't know how to calculate this for an individual researcher who I do not know.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:The exception to this is hardcore scientific publications that nobody seems to want to read.
This is not ScientificResearchNet. This is MennoNet. A place where us idiots can still voice our opinions. Why do you want to shut me down? What are you afraid of?
I am afraid that people will confuse Mennonites with culture warriors, the very people we should not want to be associated with.

I am afraid that people will come to the conclusion that Mennonites consider ourselves experts on things we know nothing about, engaging in the same kind of belligerent ignorance we see in so many debates around us. Audacity and bold language take the place of actually reading and understanding and discussing.

I am afraid that we will teach people that truth belongs to the loudest, most dominant opinion in the room, and that there is no need to take the time to carefully understand things. Truth and facts are being devalued in so many areas of our lives, what matters is picking fights and taking sides ...

Truth and facts are hard work. They require sustained attention. They are easily drowned out by propaganda and sensationalism in most circles.

Sure, this is not ScientificResearchNet, but does it have to be InflictMyPoliticalOpinionRepeatedlyEspeciallyIfItBothersPeopleNet? If it's not worth actually discussing at a useful level, why is it worth inflicting on everyone? Is this thread really what we want people to think Mennonites are like?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:
PeterG wrote: A scientific argument should be evaluated on its own merits, in its own terms, and the general failure to treat climate change in this way is disheartening (though not surprising).
It’s really difficult to accurately evaluate something on its merits when we are completely unable to do so.
The difficulty is that we are being asked to accept & believe something that we cannot verify one way or another.
I agree with both of you.

Go back and read the first two pages of this thread. Notice the gap in days before I responded to anything. Read what was said. I don't think much has changed since then.

Hmmmm, interesting how blatantly Robert says what he is doing is baiting in the first few pages. And he has said that a few times in his latest responses too.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Robert »

Bootstrap wrote:Sure, this is not ScientificResearchNet, but does it have to be InflictMyPoliticalOpinionRepeatedlyEspeciallyIfItBothersPeopleNet? If it's not worth actually discussing at a useful level, why is it worth inflicting on everyone? Is this thread really what we want people to think Mennonites are like?
And you are NOT the MennoNet Police who needs to make sure everything is just the way you want. Shutting down discussion is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Even if the points are wrong, the discussion WILL be allowed.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Sure, this is not ScientificResearchNet, but does it have to be InflictMyPoliticalOpinionRepeatedlyEspeciallyIfItBothersPeopleNet? If it's not worth actually discussing at a useful level, why is it worth inflicting on everyone? Is this thread really what we want people to think Mennonites are like?
And you are NOT the MennoNet Police who needs to make sure everything is just the way you want. Shutting down discussion is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Even if the points are wrong, the discussion WILL be allowed.
I'm not shutting it down. I don't have the power to. What I am doing is discussing the content of posts in this thread.

But I think you would do well to ask yourself why you are doing this. What value do you see in global warming / climate change debates, "poking the bear", and posting things you don't actually understand while pretending you have just shown scientists don't know what they are talking about?

Does it make MennoDiscuss a better fellowship? Does it help us focus on what is most important? Does it lead to greater Christian maturity?

Are you hoping that other people will start promoting their favorite political hot-button topics here in threads of their own, following your lead? I'm not.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Robert »

Bootstrap wrote:posting things you don't actually understand
Why do you continue to claim I do not understand what I am posting? I have a well enough understanding.

I talk about poking the bear because I also know you have some personality trait that will not let you ignore and move on. I post these things because I want to and I am posting them for those who, like me, do question all the political ferver about climate change. I started the thread with a light hearted comment about you simply because of the history of MennoDiscuss on this same issue. Again, I post because I ENJOY looking at things that challenge the established religion of climate change.
Bootstrap wrote:Does it make MennoDiscuss a better fellowship?
It does when those interested read and respond and those who are not do not.
Bootstrap wrote:Does it help us focus on what is most important?
Why can I not, as an adult, focus on more than one thing at a time? It is not an either or. I can do both.
Bootstrap wrote:Are you hoping that other people will start promoting their favorite political hot-button topics here in threads of their own, following your lead? I'm not.
Yet, you and others do.

I pesonally do not want to fight you about all this. I just know that it is inevitable. There are things I disagree with you one. I might state it once then move on. You already know how I feel. I see little reason to keep pounding you over it. I have no issue with light hearted challenges and disagreement. I feel you get frustrated and mad when I do not conform to your belief and then you try to minimize anything I post after that.

I really do not understand why you get so worried and worked up that I post things that challenge climate change. It seems you get more worked up about that then someone challenging Anabaptist ideology. Think about that. Why do you fight about this so much?

I will no longer talk about poking the bear. I was just joking, but I can see that you missed that. I really do not care if you post anything in this thread or not. I also joked about posting here just to get my post count up. I was not serious about that either. I am not that serious of a person, but when pushed, my Lutheran side comes out.

Honestly, I feel pretty pushed away by Mennonites and when you try to shut me down, I feel that same rejection. I suspect I react out of that too.

I WILL continue to post things I find. I will try not to argue as much or tease you about it. I will post it for others who may be interested. Feel free to totally ignore it from now on.
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ohio jones
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Re: Global Warring/Climate Change

Post by ohio jones »

Bootstrap wrote:Hmmmm, interesting how blatantly Robert says what he is doing is baiting in the first few pages. And he has said that a few times in his latest responses too.
You have to admit it's good bait, though. Practically irresistable.

If only he could package that and market it to the fishing industry, they could probably harvest enough fish to offset the rising sea levels.
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Wade
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Wade »

I really do believe that anyone who is serious about climate change and could share in my experience with Mennonites that for the most part would be impressed. You see I believe someone who is serious about climate change is going to take it seriously in their own life. And the Mennonites I have met for the most part are serious about being wise stewards and frugal with not wasting resources, as well as denying luxuries to help others in things like CAM. So it doesn't matter what impression the general populace has because Christian's will always be misunderstood by general society. Meanwhile we continue on in His way for His glory.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:posting things you don't actually understand
Why do you continue to claim I do not understand what I am posting? I have a well enough understanding.
This is the biggest problem with the thread. You are saying that you are in a position to debunk huge bodies of scientific work. You don't want to do the work or acquire the knowledge that scientists have to for their work to be taken seriously. And you don't want anybody to point that out.

Have you even read the IPCC reports? The whole thing, carefully, to the point that you understand what views are found in the literature on a given question, how they were assessed, and why they reached the conclusion they did? Are you willing to answer basic questions about the data that your graphics represent, e.g. who created the graphic, where was it published, how have scientists responded to it?

Are you even trying to identify reliable sources of scientific information like scientific journals, scientific associations, literature reviews done by scientists, etc. before posting, or simply looking for graphics and sound bites that support an opinion you want to promote? Do you know who is producing the information you post here, how they are funded, what reputation they have among scientists? When you point to a scientific article, does it say what you tell us it says, or does it say something completely different when I go and read the article? If I point that out, do you go back and read the article and respond accordingly?

If you tried posting these things in a forum of scientists, what kind of reception do you think you would get? Give it a try. Give us some links to that conversation. They can answer your questions, why do you prefer to post in a forum where most people cannot?
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