Global Warning/Climate Change

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:The One who said this is the One I trust above any man who tries to predict what the sea is going to do. I'm simple enough to believe that God is still controlling what is happening with the sea today, not man.
Do you believe that man can pollute the seas? Do you believe that man can overfish? Can man do things that have negative consequences, even though God is ultimately in control?

Do you believe that we should seriously consider what scientists are saying if we want to know whether we are doing something risky for the environment?
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:Can you also give us a good reason why we shouldn't trust mainstream science on the issue of human origins?
That's a different topic, I think.
No it's not. You are implying that we need to trust mainstream science in climate issues but not in the issue of human origins. Why do you trust them in one but not the other? To me it's a matter of where we as followers of Jesus put our trust in matters we don't control. If you don't want to discuss this then I have nothing further to say.
I'm pretty sure we agree that we need to put our trust in God and that human origins is beyond what we can really know scientifically. I'm pretty sure we agree that we need to put our trust in God for matters we do not control. The disagreement seems to be about whether we have some control over global warming.

To me, that's a scientific question. In the last 40 years or so, I actually think that scientists have done a pretty good job of predicting changes in the climate, and that they have improved in much the same way they have improved in predicting weather - if you want to go there, we can take a look at the graphs and compare them to earlier predictions. To me, that's an indication that this is not beyond human knowledge. Insurance companies are taking these risks into account. So is the U.S. military. And they both look at graphs and data and such to make their decisions. We can't know everything, but it is foolish to ignore the risks that we do know about.

Perhaps we also agree that global warming is mostly about things that are up to That Other Kingdom. If so, I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign against mainstream science.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Bootstrap wrote:I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign against mainstream science.
I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign for mainstream science.
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GaryK
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
That's a different topic, I think.
No it's not. You are implying that we need to trust mainstream science in climate issues but not in the issue of human origins. Why do you trust them in one but not the other? To me it's a matter of where we as followers of Jesus put our trust in matters we don't control. If you don't want to discuss this then I have nothing further to say.
I'm pretty sure we agree that we need to put our trust in God and that human origins is beyond what we can really know scientifically. I'm pretty sure we agree that we need to put our trust in God for matters we do not control. The disagreement seems to be about whether we have some control over global warming.

To me, that's a scientific question. In the last 40 years or so, I actually think that scientists have done a pretty good job of predicting changes in the climate, and that they have improved in much the same way they have improved in predicting weather - if you want to go there, we can take a look at the graphs and compare them to earlier predictions. To me, that's an indication that this is not beyond human knowledge. Insurance companies are taking these risks into account. So is the U.S. military. And they both look at graphs and data and such to make their decisions. We can't know everything, but it is foolish to ignore the risks that we do know about.

Perhaps we also agree that global warming is mostly about things that are up to That Other Kingdom. If so, I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign against mainstream science.
You have chosen to believe climate change is a scientific question and you are free to believe that. Was it a scientific question whenever the climate changed quite drastically at times throughout the history of the earth? I don't recall that you have answered this question even though it's been asked a number of times.

On the other hand you have chosen to believe that human origins is not a scientific question. Probably most of the mainstream scientists you trust on climate change would vigorously disagree with you and would very likely see the inconsistency I'm seeing. Isn't it inconsistent for you to campaign for mainstream science if we agree that global warming is mostly about things that are up to That Other Kingdom.
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GaryK
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign against mainstream science.
I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign for mainstream science.
I just now saw this. Hadn't seen it before my last post.
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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When it comes to prophesying major long term predictions, no one knows what will happen with certainty. And we are being asked not only to believe the prediction of warming, but also the results of this prediction coming true will be terrible.

Decades ago, people were (and still are) worrying about the earth running out of oil by now. We haven't, and if we ever do, it looks like we will have other sources of energy by then. Humanity will probably be okay.
People also worry about global population. And yet, the issue has never been to much people globally, it has always been localized resource distribution problems and perhaps an unrealistic level of lifestyle comparison.

I'm not against people trying to forecast things like climate and energy and population and trying to estimate consequences. In fact, I appreciate that. I'm glad there are people that are attempting to look at the global picture.
I just believe that since "most" of them are humanists who believe in evolution and who doesn't have a great track record and don't believe in God or the bible that their predictions are going to be incomplete.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign against mainstream science.
I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign for mainstream science.
I would not normally discuss Mennonites on a science forum. If someone kept talking trash about Mennonites on a science forum, I would step in. To me, a lot of this basically amounts to talking trash about people you don't know much about, implying that mainstream scientists are either stupid or intentionally misleading us, that they don't understand that their knowledge is limited, that they are only motivated by politics, etc.

On a Mennonite forum, there are plenty of people who know what is true and false about Mennonites. On a science forum, there are plenty of people who know about scientists. It's easier to spread falsehoods about Mennonites on a science forum than it is here. It's easier to spread falsehoods about scientists here than on a science forum.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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RZehr wrote:When it comes to prophesying major long term predictions, no one knows what will happen with certainty. And we are being asked not only to believe the prediction of warming, but also the results of this prediction coming true will be terrible.

Decades ago, people were (and still are) worrying about the earth running out of oil by now. We haven't, and if we ever do, it looks like we will have other sources of energy by then. Humanity will probably be okay.
People also worry about global population. And yet, the issue has never been to much people globally, it has always been localized resource distribution problems and perhaps an unrealistic level of lifestyle comparison.
This is a reasonable position. And I really have no problem with saying we don't know the future with any certainty.

That said, if we had not done things to increase food production and prepare for a rising population, I think we would be facing real difficulties, and if we had not worked on alternative energy, we would not have anything to turn to if oil does run out.
RZehr wrote:I'm not against people trying to forecast things like climate and energy and population and trying to estimate consequences. In fact, I appreciate that. I'm glad there are people that are attempting to look at the global picture.
I see this a lot like government and the rest of Caesardom. If there are risks, I am glad that there are people out there trying to understand them. And I do think the scientific paradigm is the best one we have for understanding the risks associated with climate change and global warming. The Bible doesn't tell us much about this.
RZehr wrote:I just believe that since "most" of them are humanists who believe in evolution and who doesn't have a great track record and don't believe in God or the bible that their predictions are going to be incomplete.
All human knowledge is incomplete. Since our knowledge is incomplete, I think it's safer to clean up after yourself. Most of us won't make the decisions on this topic.
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign against mainstream science.
I don't really understand why some people think it's important to campaign for mainstream science.
If the scientific concensus is true, then there are significant risks for a significant portion of humanity. If we, as Christians, care about the people made in God's image, then we would want to do what we could to minimizize the harm.

I see caring about the well-being of human beings as part of my responsibility as a follower of Jesus.

Yes God could intervene. I accept the Biblical account of a global flood; God has intervened in the past. But God also allowed the atom bomb to be dropped on the Christian center of Japan.
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