briar patch

[ken_sylvania]

That would be removing clear Scripture-

No it would not, it would be removing off-topic post from someone who is rapidly becoming a nuisance.

Everything I posted about Mary was Scripture, and y'all just cannot handle it.

No. The Scriptures do not call Mary "the mother of God." Elisabeth called her "the mother of my Lord." A number of NT references call her "the mother of Jesus." There is no reference to her as "the mother of God."

[temporal1]

fwiw, to me, on this forum, Max is the only one familiar with real life Plain Catholics. (i may misunderstand.)

I think part of the point raised by some is that it's actually impossible to be familiar with them...

that point has been articulated any number of times, however, it's not a response to the OP question (or, subject line question, either.)

i posted these late last night. i was unsettled about them, would like to add clarification, i'll try.

Wayne and Max are grown men, well able to explain themselves. they have no need of me.

my words in this thread (were) simply to lament how i liked the OP, and subject line, in that order! lol - and, i would have enjoyed reading this initiated discussion between Wayne and Max .. at least, for a bit, before others joined in.

i understand that's not how the internet works, this forum is not an exception.

as well, i appreciate the several others who did contribute, with the exception of boot, who has made it clear since Max became a member, he has no love/respect for Max, at all. even in this thread, he was first to jump on Max, and, in my mind, worse, as he uses his beloved hortatorial pronouns to "lead the charge" against Max, in what i believe to be quite a non-Anabaptist fashion.

in general, on this forum, he really wants to lead charges.

i have no trouble finding this type of aggression toward (Protestants) on Catholic sites.
not by all, not by the majority, but, to this day, some Catholics are (vicious) toward Lutherans, in particular. it's painful to read.

i find some of this type of denom aggression toward others on this forum, too.
but, this thing boot has for Max is undeniable.
many have attempted to address boot directly about it.

"Plain Catholics are not Anabaptists," i took Wayne's question as largely rhetorical, from others' posts, i believe there is no disagreement (?)

i find MN's members to be well able to read and discern, this is well represented in Wayne's thread. i am not needed there, i have no delusions to the contrary.

i would have been happy if boot had used self-restraint in that thread, knowing his personal history, and allowed others to discuss without bringing that tension. to appreciate, at times, others are better able to respond than self. it would have required self-restraint on his part. self-restraint is an important part of healthy human development. as others say, "just because it's legal to do something, doesn't mean it's the right or wise thing to do."

reading-only is a respectable choice.

so, as is common for me, i've written 'way more than i set out to.
God forgive me and my lack of self-restraint.

carry on.

boot, i'm not sure how i could have composed this in a way to address you, not meaning to "talk about you," but, it is what it is. if you would please read it as addressing you, that would be better.
but, no response is necessary. my main point is about the thread topic, not about (anyone's) responses. because of what i've written here, you may not be able to understand that.
these, my imperfect words.

[Bootstrap]

boot, i'm not sure how i could have composed this in a way to address you, not meaning to "talk about you," but, it is what it is. if you would please read it as addressing you, that would be better.
but, no response is necessary.

Let me make one brief response.

I don't think your history is accurate. I have the archives. It took about a year before I realized that some of the things Max was telling us don't seem to be true. At first, I think I was welcoming.

And I really don't think I'm anti-Catholic. I've been to the Vatican, worked with Catholic scholars, volunteered with Catholics on service projects, and was even part of an intentional Christian community that was 70% Catholic for about 8 years. For some of the questions that have come up here, I consulted with a canon lawyer, and I don't think he thought I was anti-Catholic.

Questioning the facts someone presents is not persecution. And if you look at the Catholic forums, plenty of Catholics are skeptical about Plain Catholics.

I think it's really helpful to focus on this question: are we discussing what is true, or are we discussing what we think of various people? I really do think we should be able to discuss facts and history and such. In general, exchanging opinions about people isn't a particularly helpful focus.

I'll drop out of the Briar Patch now, it's rarely a useful place to continue discussion, but I did want to say this much.

[Valerie]

No it would not, it would be removing off-topic post from someone who is rapidly becoming a nuisance.

Everything I posted about Mary was Scripture, and y'all just cannot handle it.

No. The Scriptures do not call Mary "the mother of God." Elisabeth called her "the mother of my Lord." A number of NT references call her "the mother of Jesus." There is no reference to her as "the mother of God."

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

[KingdomBuilder]

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

"The Father is greater than I"- Jesus
Don't oversimplify it. The Father is greater than the Son, Mary is NOT the "mother" of God.

[mike]

Everything I posted about Mary was Scripture, and y'all just cannot handle it.

No. The Scriptures do not call Mary "the mother of God." Elisabeth called her "the mother of my Lord." A number of NT references call her "the mother of Jesus." There is no reference to her as "the mother of God."

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

You know very well what the Anabaptists believe, and you know very well that Ken was correct in what he said. The scriptures do not use the phrase "mother of God."

[ken_sylvania]

Everything I posted about Mary was Scripture, and y'all just cannot handle it.

No. The Scriptures do not call Mary "the mother of God." Elisabeth called her "the mother of my Lord." A number of NT references call her "the mother of Jesus." There is no reference to her as "the mother of God."

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

One Anabaptist practice which I am very thankful for is this: To help us avoid error, we try to stick with Biblical language.
If the Scriptures call Mary "the mother of my Lord" and "the mother of Jesus," that's good enough for me.

The Roman Catholic church tortured the Anabaptists who insisted on using Biblical language to refer to Jesus' mother. Apparently, in their opinion (and it seems in your opinion as well), the term "mother of God" means something different than "mother of Jesus." I'm satisfied to stick close to the Bible.

[silentreader]

Everything I posted about Mary was Scripture, and y'all just cannot handle it.

No. The Scriptures do not call Mary "the mother of God." Elisabeth called her "the mother of my Lord." A number of NT references call her "the mother of Jesus." There is no reference to her as "the mother of God."

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

Mary was the mother of the incarnate Christ,

 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

found in v7&8,

She was not mother of the pre-incarnate Christ, nor, (IMO) of the post-incarnate Christ who sits on the right hand of God from v9-11.
She was the mother, as an instrument of God, of the Servant spoken of in the OT, for the Person Who was born flesh and blood, to do the will of His Father.

[Valerie]

No. The Scriptures do not call Mary "the mother of God." Elisabeth called her "the mother of my Lord." A number of NT references call her "the mother of Jesus." There is no reference to her as "the mother of God."

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

One Anabaptist practice which I am very thankful for is this: To help us avoid error, we try to stick with Biblical language.
If the Scriptures call Mary "the mother of my Lord" and "the mother of Jesus," that's good enough for me.

The Roman Catholic church tortured the Anabaptists who insisted on using Biblical language to refer to Jesus' mother. Apparently, in their opinion (and it seems in your opinion as well), the term "mother of God" means something different than "mother of Jesus." I'm satisfied to stick close to the Bible.

I understand what you're saying, and I had a hard time with this one myself- we sought to understand rather than assume, we needed to find out why this was important to the ancient Churches, both in East & West- it had more to do with a theological reason to emphasize that Christ is fully God and fully Man, not to emphasize "Mary" I think that is where we can jump to wrong understandings.
Obviously, Mary is not the Mother of the Father, nor Mother of the Holy Spirit- but when they ascribed "Theotokos" to her, it was, as was often the case, because of heresies that popped up regarding the nature of Christ- so it had more to do with THAT emphasis, then our assumption of trying to ascribe diety to Mary- which it wasn't
I had said in my post that was removed, that she is not the mother of the Father-

But to be clear, do Anabaptists say that "Jesus is God"? Or would that be wrong terminology for them. For instance if I asked you as an unbeliever, if Jesus is God? Is there a yes no answer to this? (from an Anabaptist understanding?)

[silentreader]

I didn't realize the Anabaptists do not consider Jesus God.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit-
I thought that was a pretty universal understanding among most Christians-
My Lord and My God is what the Apostle Thomas called Him, do you remember? Would you rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus God?

One Anabaptist practice which I am very thankful for is this: To help us avoid error, we try to stick with Biblical language.
If the Scriptures call Mary "the mother of my Lord" and "the mother of Jesus," that's good enough for me.

The Roman Catholic church tortured the Anabaptists who insisted on using Biblical language to refer to Jesus' mother. Apparently, in their opinion (and it seems in your opinion as well), the term "mother of God" means something different than "mother of Jesus." I'm satisfied to stick close to the Bible.

I understand what you're saying, and I had a hard time with this one myself- we sought to understand rather than assume, we needed to find out why this was important to the ancient Churches, both in East & West- it had more to do with a theological reason to emphasize that Christ is fully God and fully Man, not to emphasize "Mary" I think that is where we can jump to wrong understandings.
Obviously, Mary is not the Mother of the Father, nor Mother of the Holy Spirit- but when they ascribed "Theotokos" to her, it was, as was often the case, because of heresies that popped up regarding the nature of Christ- so it had more to do with THAT emphasis, then our assumption of trying to ascribe diety to Mary- which it wasn't
I had said in my post that was removed, that she is not the mother of the Father-

But to be clear, do Anabaptists say that "Jesus is God"? Or would that be wrong terminology for them. For instance if I asked you as an unbeliever, if Jesus is God? Is there a yes no answer to this? (from an Anabaptist understanding?)

IMO, it is a mystery not fully understandable by human thought.
Is Jesus God? The best I can do is to say, yes He is, and no He isn't.