briar patch

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
temporal1
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by temporal1 »

PeterG wrote:
silentreader wrote:Is Jesus God? The best I can do is to say, yes He is, and no He isn't.
Jesus is not the Father, but He is unquestionably God. I do not recall any passage that says that Jesus is not God, or anything of the sort. On the contrary: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "Before Abraham was, I am."

(It does not follow that it is proper to refer to Mary as the mother of God.
I believe it would be correct to say that she was the mother of His humanity, not of His divinity.
"mother" has different meanings.
here my understanding is, Mary was the special chosen one to be the vessel that brought forward Jesus, Son of God, to earth. she wasn't His bio mother, but, from scriptures, she loved+cared for Him throughout His earthly life, both his human form and divine being. she knew He was divine before He was born. she knew she was being used by God, first as a vessel, then in roles as mother and caretaker.

it's hard to be more special, more loved, than Mary, but, she is not God.

she is His adoptive mother, in the highest form we will ever know.
He loved and respected her as His earthly human mother with a divine appointment.

it's interesting how contemporary science supports and gives us improved insights into scriptures.
this is one more example. because of IVF, DNA, and more, we can see how a woman can give life to an infant without sharing DNA, at all. a woman today can be used as a vessel to carry life until birth. that same woman can relinquish the child to others, or keep the child to raise as her own. (i don't intend to minimize, this is all very complex, not all is understood about all the complications for mother and/or child!) but, the basic mechanics of how it happens is now known.

this is not to suggest God resorted to any such things, i don't believe that for one moment.
but, knowing about these things in science gives a glimpse of the power of God to create in ways we cannot fathom. we are limited, He is not.

even more interesting to me, is how, Mary, the Apostles, believers, submitted and accepted without "science," either as a glimpse, or proof. most of all, we are called to faith, which seems to so hard for us. we rebel!

Jesus knows how hard it is to believe without "facts."
that's why He values it so much. it's not the easy path.
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Valerie
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

temporal1 wrote:
PeterG wrote:
silentreader wrote:Is Jesus God? The best I can do is to say, yes He is, and no He isn't.
Jesus is not the Father, but He is unquestionably God. I do not recall any passage that says that Jesus is not God, or anything of the sort. On the contrary: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "Before Abraham was, I am."

(It does not follow that it is proper to refer to Mary as the mother of God.
I believe it would be correct to say that she was the mother of His humanity, not of His divinity.
"mother" has different meanings.
here my understanding is, Mary was the special chosen one to be the vessel that brought forward Jesus, Son of God, to earth. she wasn't His bio mother, but, from scriptures, she loved+cared for Him throughout His earthly life, both his human form and divine being. she knew He was divine before He was born. she knew she was being used by God, first as a vessel, then in roles as mother and caretaker.

it's hard to be more special, more loved, than Mary, but, she is not God.

she is His adoptive mother, in the highest form we will ever know.
He loved and respected her as His earthly human mother with a divine appointment.

it's interesting how contemporary science supports and gives us improved insights into scriptures.
this is one more example. because of IVF, DNA, and more, we can see how a woman can give life to an infant without sharing DNA, at all. a woman today can be used as a vessel to carry life until birth. that same woman can relinquish the child to others, or keep the child to raise as her own. (i don't intend to minimize, this is all very complex, not all is understood about all the complications for mother and/or child!) but, the basic mechanics of how it happens is now known.

this is not to suggest God resorted to any such things, i don't believe that for one moment.
but, knowing about these things in science gives a glimpse of the power of God to create in ways we cannot fathom. we are limited, He is not.

even more interesting to me, is how, Mary, the Apostles, believers, submitted and accepted without "science," either as a glimpse, or proof. most of all, we are called to faith, which seems to so hard for us. we rebel!

Jesus knows how hard it is to believe without "facts."
that's why He values it so much. it's not the easy path.
I tend to disagree with some of this temp- she was not called "adoptive" mother anywhere in Scripture- she was always called His mother- she was not just a 'vessel' Christ's 'human' flesh was taken from Mary's flesh- that is why He is referred to as fully God and fully Man- or the Son of Man- and the Son of God- there is a 'biological' relationship between Mary & Jesus and that is one reason the geneology is mentioned in Scripture- there's a 'bloodline'. This type of teaching is one that the early Church had to contend for as opinions could lead the Church astray-as we say- human reasonings-
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14)- how this happened, is one of the 'mysteries' the Church has never felt the need to explain in human understandings, some things we just accept as mystery- how the Holy Spirit 'came upon her' is just something we believe, but He became flesh because He took on Mary's flesh & blood in the womb where He developed.
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Valerie
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

PeterG wrote:
silentreader wrote:Is Jesus God? The best I can do is to say, yes He is, and no He isn't.
Jesus is not the Father, but He is unquestionably God. I do not recall any passage that says that Jesus is not God, or anything of the sort. On the contrary: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "Before Abraham was, I am."

(It does not follow that it is proper to refer to Mary as the mother of God. I believe it would be correct to say that she was the mother of His humanity, not of His divinity.)
Isiah said of Him in Chapter 9:
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: I tend to disagree with some of this temp- she was not called "adoptive" mother anywhere in Scripture- she was always called His mother- she was not just a 'vessel' Christ's 'human' flesh was taken from Mary's flesh- that is why He is referred to as fully God and fully Man- or the Son of Man- and the Son of God- there is a 'biological' relationship between Mary & Jesus and that is one reason the geneology is mentioned in Scripture- there's a 'bloodline'. This type of teaching is one that the early Church had to contend for as opinions could lead the Church astray-as we say- human reasonings-
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14)- how this happened, is one of the 'mysteries' the Church has never felt the need to explain in human understandings, some things we just accept as mystery- how the Holy Spirit 'came upon her' is just something we believe, but He became flesh because He took on Mary's flesh & blood in the womb where He developed.
Likewise. I believe for Jesus to take on the human side, Mary was more than just a vessel. I believe us Protestants and Anabaptists and others do not give Mary much honour in our orthopraxy. On the spirit side, I believe Jesus was also fully God, who is Spirit. Jesus had to take on the human side to be tempted in all ways as we are otherwise no man can tempt God. However, Jesus has shed the human side and His link to Mary, I believe, is the same as to us, one of spirit. In heaven

Perhaps this should be a different thread but I'm wondering what Anabaptists think about Mary being recognized as the Ark of the New Covenant as presented here - https://stpeterslist.com/4-biblical-rea ... e-covenant

Is this more details on why Catholics (plain or not) are not Anabaptists in belief, I wonder.
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silentreader
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote: I tend to disagree with some of this temp- she was not called "adoptive" mother anywhere in Scripture- she was always called His mother- she was not just a 'vessel' Christ's 'human' flesh was taken from Mary's flesh- that is why He is referred to as fully God and fully Man- or the Son of Man- and the Son of God- there is a 'biological' relationship between Mary & Jesus and that is one reason the geneology is mentioned in Scripture- there's a 'bloodline'. This type of teaching is one that the early Church had to contend for as opinions could lead the Church astray-as we say- human reasonings-
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14)- how this happened, is one of the 'mysteries' the Church has never felt the need to explain in human understandings, some things we just accept as mystery- how the Holy Spirit 'came upon her' is just something we believe, but He became flesh because He took on Mary's flesh & blood in the womb where He developed.
Likewise. I believe for Jesus to take on the human side, Mary was more than just a vessel. I believe us Protestants and Anabaptists and others do not give Mary much honour in our orthopraxy. On the spirit side, I believe Jesus was also fully God, who is Spirit. Jesus had to take on the human side to be tempted in all ways as we are otherwise no man can tempt God. However, Jesus has shed the human side and His link to Mary, I believe, is the same as to us, one of spirit. In heaven

Perhaps this should be a different thread but I'm wondering what Anabaptists think about Mary being recognized as the Ark of the New Covenant as presented here - https://stpeterslist.com/4-biblical-rea ... e-covenant

Is this more details on why Catholics (plain or not) are not Anabaptists in belief, I wonder.
Do we agree that Jesus was pre-existent before He was born of Mary? Perhaps as (God) the Word as in John 1?
Did Mary have anything to do with the existence of that pre-existent Christ?
Yes Jesus did take on human flesh to become man. But did He not also 'empty' Himself, (to what degree I don't know), as in Philippians 2:7, and in that process, did not Mary become the mother of Jesus in His human incarnation?
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Neto
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Re: briar patch

Post by Neto »

The Scripture is not clear on questions like "Did Jesus get his DNA from Mary?", nor does it say he got his "flesh" from his mother. (And it also does not say that he did NOT get his flesh from his mother.) So I think it serves us well to remain silent on such questions.
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Bootstrap
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Re: briar patch

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:The Scripture is not clear on questions like "Did Jesus get his DNA from Mary?", nor does it say he got his "flesh" from his mother. (And it also does not say that he did NOT get his flesh from his mother.) So I think it serves us well to remain silent on such questions.
Me too.

If we insist on knowing things we cannot know, we will almost always get something wrong.
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Sudsy
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote: Do we agree that Jesus was pre-existent before He was born of Mary? Perhaps as (God) the Word as in John 1?
I agree.
Did Mary have anything to do with the existence of that pre-existent Christ?
Not that I can see.
Yes Jesus did take on human flesh to become man. But did He not also 'empty' Himself, (to what degree I don't know), as in Philippians 2:7, and in that process, did not Mary become the mother of Jesus in His human incarnation?
I like the way the Amplified puts it - Philippians 2:7

but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man].

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temporal1
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by temporal1 »

Valerie wrote:
temporal1 wrote: I tend to disagree with some of this temp- she was not called "adoptive" mother anywhere in Scripture- she was always called His mother- she was not just a 'vessel' Christ's 'human' flesh was taken from Mary's flesh- that is why He is referred to as fully God and fully Man- or the Son of Man- and the Son of God- there is a 'biological' relationship between Mary & Jesus and that is one reason the geneology is mentioned in Scripture- there's a 'bloodline'. This type of teaching is one that the early Church had to contend for as opinions could lead the Church astray-as we say- human reasonings-
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14)- how this happened, is one of the 'mysteries' the Church has never felt the need to explain in human understandings, some things we just accept as mystery- how the Holy Spirit 'came upon her' is just something we believe,

but He became flesh
because He took on Mary's flesh & blood in the womb where He developed.
i don't believe i ever attempted to articulate my thoughts about Mary before.
when i wrote last night, i tried to be thoughtful and clear, but, my words/thoughts will never be perfect, i accept this. it just is.

as i wrote, i thought about some of the problems i have as a visitor in a Catholic Church. it's not easy for me. but, i feel compelled this is what is required for now, i look for that which i can understand and accept, try to be thankful for all possible. i try to think of what i might bring to the Church. i'm not sure i have anything, or that it would be accepted, i am not a member.

regarding the underlined words above, i believe those to be as (presumptive) as any; i do not find any words in scriptures that state Jesus was formed from Mary's flesh+blood, altho, certainly, in most of history, to presume otherwise could have been unthinkable (our limited understanding of God's abilities.) today's science suggests Mary could have been a vessel or instrument in ways unthinkable in the past. the speculation on either side is still, just speculation. from the beginning, we want to understand in our own ability! we are called to faith.

i believe Jesus Christ is A Miracle, reducing His existence, human+divine, to biology, doesn't work.

regarding Mary not being appreciated, as "just a vessel," or instrument (another word used elsewhere) i suspect this is a problem with contemporary thinking, that Mary could not have been important, with such a menial task as being used as a vessel!! .. ..

i believe this is contemporary stuff.
like it or not, we are impacted by today's odd feminism, whatever the heck that is, and more.

Jesus Christ role modeled servanthood and menial labor, He elevated menial tasks to highest possible honor. i believe its our modern eyes judging and misjudging, missing the valuable point of Jesus Christ on earth. who was "used" by God more harshly, more significantly, than Jesus, Himself?!
i don't believe He can be outdone when it comes to selfless service and humility, and, Jesus is God!
it perplexes human reasoning, and, always will.

if Mary used as a vessel is demeaning, how much more demeaning for Jesus to be nailed to the cross?

Mary as vessel or instrument for God is: the honor she humbly understood it to be!
who are we to suggest that's just not good enough?

after writing the 2 posts above, i enjoyed reading some posts in another thread:
"Mary" .. ..
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=826

these are my understandings. i could be all wrong. certainly, i do not find ideal words.
i enjoyed thinking my thots through and articulating them as i never had before.
i'm not sure i ever realized i had such thoughts about Mary. interesting to learn! i did not know myself.
no intent beyond that.
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sudsy
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Re: briar patch

Post by Sudsy »

The area I have trouble believing and think perhaps other Anabaptists might also is when the Catholic followers say that Mary was “full of grace” because she was born without original sin and remained sinless in order to be the New Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of God.

My belief, at this point :) , is that we all physically die as the result that we all have sinned. Not even Mary was sin free. Jesus is the only one the scriptures say is without sin. He had to take on the sins of the world, including Mary's sins, that we might become the righteousness of God through Jesus. Taking on sin, He too had to die.
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