briar patch

[Soloist]

I’m going to request that the fighting be taken somewhere else and there is an effort to go back on topic.

[Falco Knotwise]

It’s not polite to talk behind someone’s back — especially not in front of their face!

[Falco Knotwise]

I’m going to request that the fighting be taken somewhere else and there is an effort to go back on topic.

Why is it when I tried that I got no response?

[temporal1]

i believe “i see” the Briar Patch coming along in the near future.

GAMEO / RCC
https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Roman_Catholic_Church
The final paragraphs:

.. Despite these changes, in many Mennonite circles, rural as well as urban, lay as well as theologically trained, considerable residual suspicion of Catholicism remains. Theologically literate Mennonites are suspicious of Catholic understandings of priesthood, sacrament, tradition, and teaching office; grass-roots Mennonites continue elements of the traditional Protestant rejection of Catholicism as idolatrous and apostate.

Exceptions to the above generalizations are illustrated by the pamphlet by Hans-Jürgen Goerz. Goerz passes over the "Constantinian Fall" theory of church history, places the "fall of the church" in the Gregorian Reform of the 11th century (a viewpoint remarkably similar to recent scholarship on the growth of the papacy), and maintains a tone of cautious openness toward a wide variety of Catholic teachings.

Roman Catholicism has a high view of the institutional church, her tradition, and her teaching office.
Mennonites have similarly held a high view of the visible church, depending, however, on unwritten rules and structures, in contrast to the highly developed theology, priesthood, and canon law of the Roman Catholics.

Similarly, since the Anabaptist movement, Anabaptists and Mennonites have taught a memorialistic view of baptism and communion as mere signs rather than sacraments (dynamic symbols), which places Mennonites at the opposite extreme from the Roman Catholic understanding of the use of visible and physical things in sacral worship.

Practically speaking, Mennonites have also made use of created things in a sacralized way, failing however, to develop a theology of sacrament to explain the relationship of spirit and matter. -- Dennis D. Martin

Personally, i’m intrigued understanding how Luther and Simons were devout Catholics with no desire to leave their Church.
i believe this to mean it was grueling, not at all frivolous. For me, this is an important aspect. “They loved their Church so much” .. they wanted Truth to lead. i just can’t get over how significant that part was.

(i suspect) the worst factor was that the Church+State were one, this made it impossble for .. the Waldensians, and others, to appeal to scriptural Truth, it was all mixed up with government, government saw it all through political-power lenses, basic, raw, human reasoning. They saw it as an existential threat.

Lutherans and Catholics today (as i’ve met them, not state churches) .. have much in common with Anabaptists, they aren’t drowning others, and (mostly) would be shocked at the thought this ever happened.

i believe Anabaptists have had a huge impact in the world. Often unrecognized.

i believe anyone (who actually READS+BELIEVES scriptures) is bound to find common ground with Anabaptists;
after all, that’s what the big problems were about: men READING+BELIEVING.

it mostly seems hard to imagine now, literacy and scriptures are taken forgranted.
at that time, tho, the idea that common people’s beliefs would not be strictly controlled by the state .. was grounds for death.

The RCC then was The State. That’s a hard concept for most in the west.

Correct where i misunderstand.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Respect seems quite important to you, Falco, you have used the word multiple times in this thread. I think an honest rereading of JM's post (the only place I think it is possible to (mis)interpret his words as an ad hominem attack) shows that he refused respect to the organization you were demanding respect for, not to you. Please do read from James and consider the passage in light of your comments in this thread.



Off to get some work done now. I have not the luxury of spending the rest of the day here.

How are your reading comprehension skills? “You want respect? Is directed at me, ad hominem, followed by sophistic deflection.

If you want to make respect for me a topic of your conversation you had better make sure you make it crystal clear you have it, because I will not appreciate any equivocations.

Plus, I never asked JM to respect the Church of Rome. I couldn’t care less whether he does one way or the other. That’s his business. But how he expresses that disrespect for the Church of Rome to me IS my business. I don’t excuse anyone unloading their vindictive hatreds of any institution towards to me, regardless of what it is they hate. He was acting like an arrogant fool, and I let him know it.

That goes for every last one of you on this forum.

Also, even if you or anyone on this forum hates the Catholic Church, open hatred and disrespect is not what Menno Simons taught. He always insisted it was out of love that he separated from Rome.

1 John 2:11 applies even to Mennonites who think of themselves as good Christians . . .

Whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

When I first read that post, I assumed that JM was referring to the Church of Rome, of which you are a part. I didn’t read it as a personal attack on you. But maybe he did mean you personally, I don’t know. My take matches what eccentric_rambler said.

He ment the institution. I was baptized as an infant into the Church of Rome. As it turns out, some of my friends were molested by priests, but I did not find out until recently. I actually took the classes to teach CCD, the than analog of Sunday School, somewhere in my files I likely still have the certificate. When I found out what they ACTUALLY taught, I left. I requested that my “fake” baptism be withdrawn, as I no longer wished to be considered part of this corrupt institution. They refused citing that their “sacraments” were irrevocable. Maybe Max can explain why they will not withdraw that which was done without my consent.

So fast forward 50 years. It seemed that evidence of a cover up of misconduct began to come to light, and the Maryland Court of Special Appeals ordered the Attorney General to investigate. A report was produced, but the RCC fought its release in court for two years. Meanwhile, the General Assembly (Our legislative body) removed the statute of Limitations on child molestation with respect to large organizations. Finally, a redacted copy was released, detailing a multigenerational conspiracy to cover up this behavior. I recognize some of the priest’s names on this report. The archbishop, in a show of what I find to be glaring hypocrisy, gave an apology for the behavior of these 156 individuals. The next morning, his lawyers were in federal court filing a bankruptcy petition, essentially freezing all of the lawsuits that were sure to be filed, and preserving their assets. IF someone was truly repentant, he would seek to compensate those who were harmed, rather than seeking to insure they receive no compensation. The woodcut is to typify the hypocrisy of hoarding funds while stiffing those they harmed.

And there is more. They just exhumed the body of a Nun, a teacher at one of the schools that disappeared, and was found in a wooded area, dead. Did I tell you that the likely perpetrator of this crime was a volunteer police Chaplin? A Priest in charge of spiritual formation at a high school? And that he was transferred quietly to another location?

Frankly, my lack of respect is solely towards the institution which I have absolutely no respect for. Mr. Knotwise, you are not culpable in these crimes, in this hypocrisy, but I urge you consider the evidence in this report before you run the instructions up on a flagpole, and insist I salute it.

Report attached:
https://www.marylandattorneygeneral.gov ... _Abuse.pdf

[Falco Knotwise]

How are your reading comprehension skills? “You want respect? Is directed at me, ad hominem, followed by sophistic deflection.

If you want to make respect for me a topic of your conversation you had better make sure you make it crystal clear you have it, because I will not appreciate any equivocations.

Plus, I never asked JM to respect the Church of Rome. I couldn’t care less whether he does one way or the other. That’s his business. But how he expresses that disrespect for the Church of Rome to me IS my business. I don’t excuse anyone unloading their vindictive hatreds of any institution towards to me, regardless of what it is they hate. He was acting like an arrogant fool, and I let him know it.

That goes for every last one of you on this forum.

Also, even if you or anyone on this forum hates the Catholic Church, open hatred and disrespect is not what Menno Simons taught. He always insisted it was out of love that he separated from Rome.

1 John 2:11 applies even to Mennonites who think of themselves as good Christians . . .

When I first read that post, I assumed that JM was referring to the Church of Rome, of which you are a part. I didn’t read it as a personal attack on you. But maybe he did mean you personally, I don’t know. My take matches what eccentric_rambler said.

He ment the institution. I was baptized as an infant into the Church of Rome. As it turns out, some of my friends were molested by priests, but I did not find out until recently. I actually took the classes to teach CCD, the than analog of Sunday School, somewhere in my files I likely still have the certificate. When I found out what they ACTUALLY taught, I left. I requested that my “fake” baptism be withdrawn, as I no longer wished to be considered part of this corrupt institution. They refused citing that their “sacraments” were irrevocable. Maybe Max can explain why they will not withdraw that which was done without my consent.

So fast forward 50 years. It seemed that evidence of a cover up of misconduct began to come to light, and the Maryland Court of Special Appeals ordered the Attorney General to investigate. A report was produced, but the RCC fought its release in court for two years. Meanwhile, the General Assembly (Our legislative body) removed the statute of Limitations on child molestation with respect to large organizations. Finally, a redacted copy was released, detailing a multigenerational conspiracy to cover up this behavior. I recognize some of the priest’s names on this report. The archbishop, in a show of what I find to be glaring hypocrisy, gave an apology for the behavior of these 156 individuals. The next morning, his lawyers were in federal court filing a bankruptcy petition, essentially freezing all of the lawsuits that were sure to be filed, and preserving their assets. IF someone was truly repentant, he would seek to compensate those who were harmed, rather than seeking to insure they receive no compensation. The woodcut is to typify the hypocrisy of hoarding funds while stiffing those they harmed.

And there is more. They just exhumed the body of a Nun, a teacher at one of the schools that disappeared, and was found in a wooded area, dead. Did I tell you that the likely perpetrator of this crime was a volunteer police Chaplin? A Priest in charge of spiritual formation at a high school? And that he was transferred quietly to another location?

Frankly, my lack of respect is solely towards the institution which I have absolutely no respect for. Mr. Knotwise, you are not culpable in these crimes, in this hypocrisy, but I urge you consider the evidence in this report before you run the instructions up on a flagpole, and insist I salute it.

Report attached:
https://www.marylandattorneygeneral.gov ... _Abuse.pdf

Mr. Maccabaeus, I couldn’t care less who or what you salute. Apparently, you still don’t get it.

Thank you for the clarity in other respects, though.

[temporal1]

i wrote:
i believe Anabaptists have had a huge impact in the world. Often unrecognized.

that’s ok.*
it was never meant to be about any person, any denom. the pure intent is to lead to Jesus, to Truth. not to self.

there was no plan to create Lutherans or Mennonites. those default labels were highly derogatory.
scary times.

*i mean to say, from what i’ve read, none of the early reformers were intent on themselves.
They were intent on Truth. From what i’ve witnessed IRL, i believe their influence goes beyond what is generally recognized.
The work of the Holy Spirit.

[Falco Knotwise]

Frankly, my lack of respect is solely towards the institution which I have absolutely no respect for. Mr. Knotwise, you are not culpable in these crimes, in this hypocrisy, but I urge you consider the evidence in this report before you run the instructions up on a flagpole, and insist I salute it.

Report attached:
https://www.marylandattorneygeneral.gov ... _Abuse.pdf

The Baltimore situation was horrendous and it was also reported on by several Catholic organizations before the story broke. They were ignored by the hierarchy, too, just like everybody else. I know of stories of priests who were ritualistically killed for trying to expose this stuff.

[ohio jones]

I’m going to request that the fighting be taken somewhere else and there is an effort to go back on topic.

Why is it when I tried that I got no response?

Well, he said "I'm going to request" and then actually did so. I see now that you asked a question, but did you report a post? We don't necessarily read everything, especially in a thread on Catholicism that is tangential to the main content of the forum.

[Falco Knotwise]

I’m going to request that the fighting be taken somewhere else and there is an effort to go back on topic.

Why is it when I tried that I got no response?

Well, he said "I'm going to request" and then actually did so. I see now that you asked a question, but did you actually report a post? We don't necessarily read everything, especially in a thread on Catholicism that is tangential to the main content of the forum.

Thanks OJ. Next time I will more politely say, “I’m going to request.”

Yes, I did really report it. I clicked the [!] button. I believe it went to Robert. The only response I got is “the report is closed” which I think means “nothing will be done about it?”

Is that what “Report Closed” means? I really don’t know and would appreciate some clarity.