briar patch
- Josh
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Re: briar patch
A friend of mine is doing his masters’ thesis on what “son of God” would have meant in the 1st century. We talked about it Saturday, and it was interesting to be able to draw some ideas from this discussion thread. (Specifically son of God and God the Son being different things - the latter not being a term found in the scriptures.)
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Re: briar patch
The thread this was posted in was locked before I had an opportunity to clarify my statement. I thought about specifying "Russian Empire", but in the end chose not to. This decision created the misunderstanding which then generated Erika's reply as it appears here. The request for Mennonites to stay was from Russia, not the USSR. No Mennonites were sent to Siberia by the Russian Empire. It is true that many of my people were arrested and never seen again, shot in front of their families, or shipped off to Siberia, but this took place mostly during the reign of Stalin. This is what I was referring to when I said that "Those that stayed had it far worse than even those who left when my great grandparents did." All of my ancestors left before the fall of Czarist Russia, and also (of course) before the fall of The Republic of Russia, which was formed after the Czar stepped down. It was bad enough to have to flee what had become an adopted homeland, but many of those who chose to stay were not allowed to leave - they were, as Erika points out, shipped off to Siberia, or worse. (One might say that of those who stayed, those who were shipped off to Siberia were the 'lucky' ones. The unlucky ones were killed.)Erika
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Re: Agression in the forums.
Unread postby Erika » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:09 pm
Untrue. Where is the evidence of that? The Russians were sending Mennonites to Siberia. There is plenty of evidence of that.Neto wrote:Erika wrote:
.... It is no wonder the Russians kicked Mennonites out of their country. ....
Actually, there was an 11th hour plea for the Mennonites to stay. Unfortunately not for the Jews. But all in all, I'm glad that 'we' left. Those that stayed had it far worse than even those who left when my great grandparents did.
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
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Re: briar patch
One thing I have noticed in looking at OT precedents is that the phrase "son of God" is explicitly linked to the Davidic covenant.Josh wrote:A friend of mine is doing his masters’ thesis on what “son of God” would have meant in the 1st century. We talked about it Saturday, and it was interesting to be able to draw some ideas from this discussion thread. (Specifically son of God and God the Son being different things - the latter not being a term found in the scriptures.)
The Lord declares to you that the Lord himself will establish a house for you: "When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. But my love will never be taken away from him
2 Samuel 7:11-15
And so to describe someone as the son of God was to say in code form that they were the Messiah. There is evidence in the Gospels that the people of Jesus' time understood it in that way, because the two ideas of Son of God and Messiah/king of Israel always seem to be associated with each other in their speech.
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 13:16
And again,“Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel!"
John 1:49
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
Mark 14:61
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Re: briar patch
An older gentleman I met when I first began attending a Mennonite Brethren church in the late 70's had grown up in the Crimea between the wars and as he described it, the pastor was the first to go, so an elder stepped up to take his place. Then the elder was taken away and one by one the men of the congregation stepped forward to lead and each in his turn was disappeared. He said that by the time the German Wermacht arrived in his Mennonite village, 90% of the families there were fatherless.Neto wrote:This is what I was referring to when I said that "Those that stayed had it far worse than even those who left when my great grandparents did." All of my ancestors left before the fall of Czarist Russia, and also (of course) before the fall of The Republic of Russia, which was formed after the Czar stepped down. It was bad enough to have to flee what had become an adopted homeland, but many of those who chose to stay were not allowed to leave - they were, as Erika points out, shipped off to Siberia, or worse. (One might say that of those who stayed, those who were shipped off to Siberia were the 'lucky' ones. The unlucky ones were killed.)
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Re: briar patch
I tried to find the source where I recently read about the request from the Russian authorities for the Mennonites to stay. I have done a good bit of reading about early Mennonite Brethren history recently, so I'm not sure which book it was in, but I think it was one of the following: Moving Beyond Secession, Perilous Journey, Pilgrimage of Faith, or The Story of the Early Mennonite Brethren. I believe that I also heard this numerous times as I grew up. The reason for this request was, of course, not out of love or respect for the Mennonite people; rather, it was an economic move. The government had thought that they could Russify the Mennonites, but instead they began leaving in droves (which was not permitted at all under the Soviets, although some fled illegally). The Mennonites provided the backbone of agriculture in the Russian Empire, both in food production and in equipment manufacturing. It was a blow to the economy to loose all of those farmers and manufacturers. It is also said that even during the more modern period of the Soviet Union, the wheat production in what is now Ukraine never topped the yield during the Mennonite colony period under the Czar.
I know that it is perhaps not typical, but I sharply distinguish between 'Russia' and 'the Soviet Union'. If I mean the USSR, I will not say 'Russia'. While the controlling class of Soviets were, for the most part, ethnic Russians, it was not the Russian people who sent the Mennonites to Siberia during the Stalin period of Russian history, it was the Soviet government.
I know that it is perhaps not typical, but I sharply distinguish between 'Russia' and 'the Soviet Union'. If I mean the USSR, I will not say 'Russia'. While the controlling class of Soviets were, for the most part, ethnic Russians, it was not the Russian people who sent the Mennonites to Siberia during the Stalin period of Russian history, it was the Soviet government.
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
- ohio jones
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Re: briar patch
Coming to the briar patch to post this from the NIcene Creed thread, I notice it's actually sort of on topic here.
But the above post has somewhere around 17 spellling anamolies (hard to get an exact count without knowing the original intent) and is rather hard to understand as a result, and quite distracting.
Have you got a new internet-enabled blender that is intercepting your posts before they reach the web?
Are you running encryption software [insert tinfoil hat smilie] that is not quite compatible with MN's decryption?
Has autocorrect been turned on by mistake?
Rmwiotomh ,omfd* (and those of us who value clarity in written communication) want to know.
* "Enquiring minds" shifted one letter to the right
Valerie, what has happened to your typing lately? You used to make the ocassional typo, but not really more than average- though the nonstandard punctuation- and chained sentence fragments- could get slightly confusing at times- just saying --Valerie wrote:Constantine calling the Bishops from various areas had nothing to do with him being Greek. rous heresy was sowing divord (yhayd a sin) & the enemy of our soul loves to divide the Church. Peace needed restored These over 300 Bishops who came to the call to council, many still had the marks of persecution on their bodies-Condtsntone had ended the long years of suffering the Church had survived.
It's easy to say what 'we' or 'should' have been done at the time. It is amazing to me people lack the ability it seems to put themselves back 1300 years & understand this. I suppose it is because we are in a time where over 40,000 sects (& cults) represent the Church today. Not so at that time. The Church who canonized the Scriptures we trust still was heeding the warnings by Christ that false teachers & doctrines would try to destroy the Church. They were told to contend for the faith (Jude 3). They were told they were the pillar and ground of the tfith(1 Timothy 3:25). An enormous responsibility go maintain the unity Chrisy prayrd go His Fsther wr would have, that this unity itself, would be a witness to the world. Now wr I've in a time where churches split & recreate themselves over FAR lesd important things (should I nsme some?)
We must remember too, the fo trine of the Trinity existed long before Constantine calling this council.
But the above post has somewhere around 17 spellling anamolies (hard to get an exact count without knowing the original intent) and is rather hard to understand as a result, and quite distracting.
Have you got a new internet-enabled blender that is intercepting your posts before they reach the web?
Are you running encryption software [insert tinfoil hat smilie] that is not quite compatible with MN's decryption?
Has autocorrect been turned on by mistake?
Rmwiotomh ,omfd* (and those of us who value clarity in written communication) want to know.
* "Enquiring minds" shifted one letter to the right
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I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins
I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
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Re: briar patch
Wow, how embarrassing! Shame on me for not proofing my posts, or like this time, was too late for me to edit. I don't presently have computer to use, am not used to typing on a phone- I apologize, how difficult to read my posts! Before I had a keyboard, this is new for me, hopefully practice will make perfect, I had a feeling you'd kindly address this one I notice even trying to type this extra letters kept showing up to delete. I'd love the post to be deleted, plus I put 1300 years ago instead of 1700, so sorryohio jones wrote:Coming to the briar patch to post this from the NIcene Creed thread, I notice it's actually sort of on topic here.
Valerie, what has happened to your typing lately? You used to make the ocassional typo, but not really more than average- though the nonstandard punctuation- and chained sentence fragments- could get slightly confusing at times- just saying --Valerie wrote:Constantine calling the Bishops from various areas had nothing to do with him being Greek. rous heresy was sowing divord (yhayd a sin) & the enemy of our soul loves to divide the Church. Peace needed restored These over 300 Bishops who came to the call to council, many still had the marks of persecution on their bodies-Condtsntone had ended the long years of suffering the Church had survived.
It's easy to say what 'we' or 'should' have been done at the time. It is amazing to me people lack the ability it seems to put themselves back 1300 years & understand this. I suppose it is because we are in a time where over 40,000 sects (& cults) represent the Church today. Not so at that time. The Church who canonized the Scriptures we trust still was heeding the warnings by Christ that false teachers & doctrines would try to destroy the Church. They were told to contend for the faith (Jude 3). They were told they were the pillar and ground of the tfith(1 Timothy 3:25). An enormous responsibility go maintain the unity Chrisy prayrd go His Fsther wr would have, that this unity itself, would be a witness to the world. Now wr I've in a time where churches split & recreate themselves over FAR lesd important things (should I nsme some?)
We must remember too, the fo trine of the Trinity existed long before Constantine calling this council.
But the above post has somewhere around 17 spellling anamolies (hard to get an exact count without knowing the original intent) and is rather hard to understand as a result, and quite distracting.
Have you got a new internet-enabled blender that is intercepting your posts before they reach the web?
Are you running encryption software [insert tinfoil hat smilie] that is not quite compatible with MN's decryption?
Has autocorrect been turned on by mistake?
Rmwiotomh ,omfd* (and those of us who value clarity in written communication) want to know.
* "Enquiring minds" shifted one letter to the right
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- ohio jones
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Re: briar patch
Ah, that explains a lot. Thanks. Have you considered a Bluetooth keyboard that interfaces with your phone?
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I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins
I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
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Re: briar patch
Never heard of that, I am behind my Amish friends on technology, we are trying to find an inexpensive way to have internet again, prices were going up too much by our local cable co we had for years, then I could get back to my usual amount of typos, this way makes me nuts.ohio jones wrote:Ah, that explains a lot. Thanks. Have you considered a Bluetooth keyboard that interfaces with your phone?
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Re: briar patch
i have no problem respecting your OP.Re: First Things - Instead of the Nicene Creed
by Bootstrap » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:51 am
This is the premise for the thread. Please accept it - at least for the sake of argument - if you want to participate in this thread.
So ... suppose you had to have something to say every week during the service instead of the Nicene Creed, and it had to be found directly in Scripture. What would you choose? Please quote the text, don't just give the verse number.
If you really like to use the creed and would want to use it, imagine what you would do if the creed did not exist. After all, for the first 300 years of Christianity, it did not exist.
however, i would have appreciated if you had respected my OP in the Nicene Creed thread (and numerous others).
without revisiting, i believe EVERY post you submitted there was focused on unapologetically derailing the thread. this new thread’s subject line and OP support that.
this is not an isolated example, or i would have continued to ignore.
it’s a good example to represent the bigger pattern.
being a huffy purist about one’s chosen topics works best when one observes similar respect for others’ topics.
regardng your premise in this new thread -
(i think) it’s asking the wrong question(s).
Protestants and Anabaptists that eliminated the creeds did so with reason, it was not an oversight.
so, to go backward and attempt to revise, would not be a valuable pursuit, in my view.
YMMV.
Last edited by temporal1 on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.
”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.
”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN