Job openings, work needed

[YorkandAdams]

If you are literate you can probably just ignore that qualification. An 8th grade church school education is equivalent to a high school education in many American school districts, or might even exceed one in underperforming school districts.

I’ve never had any employer ask to see my diploma much less high school transcript.

I have heard this statement repeated plenty of times, and have come to the conclusion that this statement is simply untrue.

In my opinion, the education system within the ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative schools seems to be sub-par to the public schools within my area. I attended and graduated from a public school within the past several years, and can attest that there are plenty of public high schools which hold much higher standards than the conservative Mennonite schools which I have familiarity. The diversity in subjects accompanied by teachers who have been educated in their respective subjects makes a world of difference when assessing the quality of education. Granted I grew up in a middle-class school district, not an inner-city district. I understand there is a drastic difference in resources available, but still contend that for the average American, a middle-class school district provides students with the opportunity for a fine educational base. Whether they take advantage of this opportunity or not is up to the individual. Just to clarify, I am not arguing that public high schools do a better job preparing students for job opportunities (for that is one area they could use improvement). I do believe that having a largely unspecialized set of teachers who happen to be a product of an environment which does not put proper emphasis on education is a significant drawback when comparing educational quality.

[Josh]

York’s city school district is amongst the worst performing in PA (I believe it’s ranked #3 from the bottom, or was).

The average American doesn’t have the option to be in a “good” middle-class (or upper middle-class) school district. Many of them have to contend with school districts that operate in grinding poverty in inner city or in rural areas.

In a Mennonite setting, it is entirely feasible to live in $75,000 house, have 5 kids, make $16/hr, and have all of your kids get a quality education. That isn’t even close to an option for the average American. I can think off the top of my head of a family doing that 2 hours from DC and another 1 hour from Pittsburgh. At the $75,000 level, a quality public school district simply wouldn’t be accessible to them.

[temporal1]

i may have found a couple of hours of weekly work.
a busy nearby family needs help in their home.
i should know soon.

they cancelled. hopefully, postponed. not sure yet.

a week passed, not a peep.
i texted, “Did you find the help you needed?” .. i was sure they must have.
they replied right away, many apologies, and, “can you begin next week?”

so, i will try it out. we’ll see if it works out.

meanwhile, in my dejection, i decided i’d better keep looking ..
i found a part-time job, small business. office-retail work.
further away, they asked me to come in to talk next week. i will do that.
both jobs would not be too much (i don’t think.) we’ll see.
i will try.

visited with the owners about the job.
i believe it went well. they even seemed RELIEVED i was not a very young person.
i was relieved they were relieved. they will call next week.

i’m optimistic.

[YorkandAdams]

York’s city school district is amongst the worst performing in PA (I believe it’s ranked #3 from the bottom, or was).

The average American doesn’t have the option to be in a “good” middle-class (or upper middle-class) school district. Many of them have to contend with school districts that operate in grinding poverty in inner city or in rural areas.

In a Mennonite setting, it is entirely feasible to live in $75,000 house, have 5 kids, make $16/hr, and have all of your kids get a quality education. That isn’t even close to an option for the average American. I can think off the top of my head of a family doing that 2 hours from DC and another 1 hour from Pittsburgh. At the $75,000 level, a quality public school district simply wouldn’t be accessible to them.

Your points are fair. York City School District is quite awful, and as a result of this, charter schools have increasingly become the norm for many students living in the city boundaries. Some of these charter schools have actually been decently successful, but I digress. In a low-income area (rural or urban), there will always be a lack of opportunity. Students will not have the resources that a wealthier district would. There is no way this is going to change anytime soon and as a result, the quality of education in these areas will remain low. In the example you gave above, a $200,000 home (Median for my school district) would be out of reach for the family. But understand that most households within this district have dual incomes. They are not simply relying on one breadwinner. Double $16 an hour and suddenly the home does not seem out of reach. Granted this would require the wife to work (which I know conservative Mennonites would look down upon once she has bear children), but for the average American family, it is entirely feasible (even if both parents have "blue collar jobs".

I believe our definition of a quality education is what is causing the confusion. It seems to me that Conservative Mennonites have created an education system which stresses only the practical disciplines, while completely ignoring areas of study that can not be directly applied. Just this past Sunday I had the opportunity to talk to several school teachers after church. These girls had an education up through the 9th and/or 10th grade, at which point they dropped out and most obtained their GED. When I asked them why they did not stay in school longer, I received the same answer every time. "Why would I stay in school when I could be out making money". Isn't this an ironic attitude for a school teacher to have.

So back to my main point, if you believe having the practical disciplines taught is enough to classify an education as quality, then so be it. However, if you are like me and feel that there is value in teaching areas of study which can not be practically applied, then I would not classify a Conservative Mennonite education up to the 9th or 10th grade as "quality".

[Josh]

Conservative Mennonites generally reject higher education, with some notable exceptions.

Given the results their culture gets versus the results I see from high school only public school education on average, and average college education, and American culture in general, I think I’ll stick with how conservative Mennonites do things.

[silentreader]

Conservative Mennonites generally reject higher education, with some notable exceptions.

Given the results their culture gets versus the results I see from high school only public school education on average, and average college education, and American culture in general, I think I’ll stick with how conservative Mennonites do things.

I think it's becoming a case of 'discouraging' higher education beyond high school around here.

[temporal1]

Conservative Mennonites generally reject higher education, with some notable exceptions.

Given the results their culture gets versus the results I see from high school only public school education on average, and average college education, and American culture in general, I think I’ll stick with how conservative Mennonites do things.

I think it's becoming a case of 'discouraging' higher education beyond high school around here.

one thing i notice, companies HIRE young people from conservative upbringings, employers like the results of the solid work ethic, personal responsibility, and morality learned from Christianity.

they like it so much, they try to “pluck out” what they like, remove, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, pat themselves on the back for how brilliant they are, and, call it a day.

recently, i’ve had brief talks with employers who are so sad to see young people looking for work, high school and college age. their complaints are about lack of focus, self-discipline, lack of basic math skills, etc. .. but, they have their smartphones! they are “short on time,” impatient, wanting to get through interviews .. to return to their screens. they lack communications skills.

if it is true that conservative Mennonites have things to learn from (the DOE) - i believe it’s at least equally true the DOE has plenty of room for improvement, too.

lots of important life skills are not expensive to teach.
but, if ignored, they become very costly.

i was surprised to learn how one very “hep” video game company (i happen to be familiar with) - has hired from Christian schools, and home schooled students. i was not expecting that.
they are not producing Christian video games.

i’m a grandmother now. my children are through school and are working.
now i get to see who is hired. it can be surprising.

it seems, no matter their lib politics, and other outward appearances, employers continue to appreciate old school results. i find this encouraging.

what is discouraging is how those young people are then peer-pressured, and tempted with financial gains (employment) to leave their upbringings behind.

[YorkandAdams]

Conservative Mennonites generally reject higher education, with some notable exceptions.

Given the results their culture gets versus the results I see from high school only public school education on average, and average college education, and American culture in general, I think I’ll stick with how conservative Mennonites do things.

One last comment,

My previous statements only pertained to educational quality.

I purposely did not factor in the positive atmosphere that a conservative Mennonite school has on its students. This is always the kicker given to me. I can't argue that this factor is extremely important in molding the next generation. My criticism is that this is often used as an excuse to dismiss the educational quality argument.

There are examples of conservative Mennonite schools which offer a relatively high-quality education (the mega Washington and Franklin schools come to mind) which cut off in either 9th or 10th grade. Especially in the "keystone level" conservative high schools (like Terre Hill, Schafferstown, Faith, exc.), the educational level is high enough to contend with what I received in a middle-class high school. Granted these schools are often based in areas which have a large population of conservative Mennonites, which in turn have a larger pool of resources available to support these schools than say the church outreach with 5 families. But they do show that a high-quality education can be achieved while still being in a godly environment. My problem is when statements are thrown around like "an 8th-grade Mennonite education is on par with a public school diploma". Unless the student attends one of these Mennonite mega schools, this statement is simply untrue. They simply do not have the available resources to be on par with a public high school. Yes, a rural or inner-city school district can be low quality, but the small rural Mennonite school has even fewer resources and teachers which are largely a product of a culture that bashes formal education past the bare minimum. I'm sorry, but the 9th-grade high school drop out is not my ideal high school teacher, no matter how much "self-study" he has done.

I do have respect for programs like Faith Builders which are trying to fill this "non-college" higher education void. The problem is convincing conservative Mennonites that a more formalized education is valuable. So many still view it as a necessary evil. I can't tell you how uncomfortable it is for me to hear comments like "How quick can I get my boys on the construction crew or farm"? I would just once like to hear someone in my setting acknowledge that school is not simply to comply with local/state law, but also to help prepare a person on their journey to become a well-rounded individual. I'm not saying every Mennonite should be a renaissance man, but it should not be looked down upon like it is currently.

While I don't have children (and don't plan on anything happening in the near future ), I will certainly make sure that any children that I have are sent to the highest quality conservative Mennonite school available. This will most likely mean relocating to a Mennonite "mecca", but that is a sacrifice that I feel is worth making.

Thank You for listening to my rant, I will now be quiet.

[mike]

One last comment,

My previous statements only pertained to educational quality.

I purposely did not factor in the positive atmosphere that a conservative Mennonite school has on its students. This is always the kicker given to me. I can't argue that this factor is extremely important in molding the next generation. My criticism is that this is often used as an excuse to dismiss the educational quality argument.

I find your comments quite interesting. I am not a teacher now, but taught four years in a conservative Anabaptist school, took three summer terms at Faith Builders, and then a number of credits from a distance learning program. The negative or dismissive attitudes toward education that you have encountered in conservative Anabaptist circles are familiar in my own background, which is in mostly Amish-derived conservative Mennonite circles that provide an eighth-grade education. However, my wife is from a conservative Mennonite background which, at least in the last 30-40 years, has placed some value in high school. In her circles, I found an appreciation for education that was quite different from what I grew up with, even though there is still a good degree of skepticism toward college.

I would suggest that some of the value of having a solid secondary education program is critical thinking skills, which in my opinion can be lacking in an eighth-grade level of education. Possibly this is one of the areas you have in mind when you talk about subject areas that aren't perceived as directly applicable to work skills. I would be interesting in hearing some specifics of what you mean by "areas of study that can not be directly applied."

[temporal1]

One last comment,

My previous statements only pertained to educational quality.

I purposely did not factor in the positive atmosphere that a conservative Mennonite school has on its students. This is always the kicker given to me. I can't argue that this factor is extremely important in molding the next generation. My criticism is that this is often used as an excuse to dismiss the educational quality argument.

I find your comments quite interesting. I am not a teacher now, but taught four years in a conservative Anabaptist school, took three summer terms at Faith Builders, and then a number of credits from a distance learning program. The negative or dismissive attitudes toward education that you have encountered in conservative Anabaptist circles are familiar in my own background, which is in mostly Amish-derived conservative Mennonite circles that provide an eighth-grade education. However, my wife is from a conservative Mennonite background which, at least in the last 30-40 years, has placed some value in high school. In her circles, I found an appreciation for education that was quite different from what I grew up with, even though there is still a good degree of skepticism toward college.

I would suggest that some of the value of having a solid secondary education program is critical thinking skills, which in my opinion can be lacking in an eighth-grade level of education. Possibly this is one of the areas you have in mind when you talk about subject areas that aren't perceived as directly applicable to work skills. I would be interesting in hearing some specifics of what you mean by "areas of study that can not be directly applied."

i agree, and, hope he keeps the discussion going.
mike, as an employer, what is your experience with hiring? (if you care to share.)

people are interested in what employers are looking for.
lots of young people want to have encouragement they are working toward a goal.