Your Story

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

KingdomBuilder wrote:I respect your point here, of course, Sudsy.. And what your preacher says. However, personal testimonies simply don't resonate with a lot of people. I was (hopefully not "am"..) one of that type.
It was just hard for me to draw parallels between someone else's conversion and my own life.. The differing realities and variables made it feel like apples and oranges.

I for one am a firm believer in the seeing of falsity/ hypocrisy as a first step towards seeing truth. Hold things up to the light to see their darkness. JWs and LDS utilize this tactic, theology aside, and it's effective.
Yes, this was my concern when our pastor suggested the 'hook' is our personal story of conversion. I remember giving my personal story to a fellow and his response was to politely say 'Well, good for you'. Not that I expected him to immediately fall on his knees and repent but it did make me think about whether I had focused too much on my own experience than on the story of Jesus. When I later focused more on the story of Jesus, questions arose for further discussion.

The JWs do like to focus on their understandings of the Kingdom and in my experience with them they also like to take a shot at the trinity belief. But where within Christianity would you not find some form of hypocrisy as this is quite a subjective area ? Anabaptism in itself reflects various areas of hypocrisy. What would you point to as hypocrisy when pointing people to the truth ?
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

JimFoxvog wrote:Hooks, bait, and lures make interesting analogies. Jesus was talking to those who used nets. How can we use nets as our metaphor?
I like the picture of the casting out a net in that we don't know just what kind of fish will be caught. There will be some 'keepers' and some 'releases back' and these will be sorted out later. The simple Gospel basic message, to me, would be the net cast out into the world. When the disciples didn't catch anything when fishing, Jesus said to get back out there and cast the net on the other side of the boat. Sounds silly to a fisherman but their belief in Jesus to try again resulted in a huge harvest. Perhaps this is telling us to not give up when we cast the net as there will be a catch if we follow Jesus directions through the Holy Spirit. Today, one of our struggles is perseverance as we have so much in the natural at the push of a button.

I think today's bigger problem is that we are not allowing Jesus to make us into those who cast the net. We want the fish just to jump out of the water into the boat.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

Got to go for now but would like to explore what Wade said later about Christians not being more Christ like.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Your Story

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Sudsy wrote:What would you point to as hypocrisy when pointing people to the truth
Bad fruit- those who cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles. We need to create an intentional seperation from these "Christians".

A huge part of what keeps people away from Christianity isn't what they don't see, it's what they do see.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

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Wade wrote: I talk to people often asking if they are a Christian and whatever I can to lead into spiritual discussion. The excuse by far over anything else why people tell me they are "sort of a Christian" or not at all is because; Christians aren't Christ-like. What I read about how Mennonites live is part of what lured me to the kingdom.
However, do I see this happening where more people enter the kingdom because of a good witness? No. But my main experience is very limited to a church that had many internal struggles.
I do have people often ask about my demeanor. Which one gentleman after a few weeks of talking told me a couple days ago that he talked to his wife about moving to the nearest town I told him has Mennonites. She told him that he was crazy...
I have had older(mid-fifties) hardened men in tears when sharing about the love I have seen in one Mennonite Church.
We all need to get over "I" to be that witness to reach these people and expand to places where there are not options of Anabaptist churches.

Regarding what I bolded above and thinking about how to respond. Thoughts that come to mind - If someone said to me 'Christians aren't Christ-like' as a reason they are not a Christian, I would want them to give examples of what they see as not Christ-like and what they think a Christ-like person should be like. Try to draw them into further discussion to get beyond this stumbling block. Jesus pointed out that not all who profess to be a Christ follower are truly following Him. Why should they allow what someone else professes to be hinder them from considering what Jesus is all about. Don't allow them to side-track on the failings of professing Christians who either have never been born again or are possessing Christians with imperfections in their Christ following, as we all are. So, up front Christians are not perfect people and some have never been made spiritually alive by God. Then go into what the scripture says about us being spiritually dead, etc, etc.

This is just an example of trying to move away from a 'bad story' about a professing Christian to how I might approach moving to the 'good story' of salvation in Jesus. Others would have their way but I think we really should be into discussing these 'fishing techniques'. I have found the JWs and Mormons are way ahead of most Christians in the area of 'making converts' even though they may be making converts to a religion and not to Christ. And Mennonites might do the same. It isn't about converting folk to Anabaptism but rather to Christ.

Wade, I, too, have been in churches of internal conflict and at one point, felt no church attending would be better than running into it again. But it seems to be a fact we have to live with. Hoping you find a group you can work in to further God's Kingdom. I've been around and imo, Anabaptism, in various forms, is lacking in some of the most important areas of furthering God's Kingdom in today's world. I'm thankful I have access to a church with basic Anabaptist beliefs and heavily involved in growing the Kingdom using modern means. Hope you find something even if you must keep certain Anabaptist beliefs to yourself. Others here are doing just that.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

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KingdomBuilder wrote:
Sudsy wrote:What would you point to as hypocrisy when pointing people to the truth
Bad fruit- those who cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles. We need to create an intentional seperation from these "Christians".

A huge part of what keeps people away from Christianity isn't what they don't see, it's what they do see.
I guess I disagree with this kind of separation in considering the story of the wheat and the tares. This will be sorted out in the end. I don't disagree that these tares that appear as wheat are a stumbling block but as I said above to Wade, I think we can work around it. Otherwise, we 'throw in the towel' and say hypocrisy one the day. Bottom line, imo, to some degree, we all have some hypocrisy that shows up in our lives, at least, in the view of others.
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Wade
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Re: Your Story

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote: I talk to people often asking if they are a Christian and whatever I can to lead into spiritual discussion. The excuse by far over anything else why people tell me they are "sort of a Christian" or not at all is because; Christians aren't Christ-like. What I read about how Mennonites live is part of what lured me to the kingdom.
However, do I see this happening where more people enter the kingdom because of a good witness? No. But my main experience is very limited to a church that had many internal struggles.
I do have people often ask about my demeanor. Which one gentleman after a few weeks of talking told me a couple days ago that he talked to his wife about moving to the nearest town I told him has Mennonites. She told him that he was crazy...
I have had older(mid-fifties) hardened men in tears when sharing about the love I have seen in one Mennonite Church.
We all need to get over "I" to be that witness to reach these people and expand to places where there are not options of Anabaptist churches.

Regarding what I bolded above and thinking about how to respond. Thoughts that come to mind - If someone said to me 'Christians aren't Christ-like' as a reason they are not a Christian, I would want them to give examples of what they see as not Christ-like and what they think a Christ-like person should be like. Try to draw them into further discussion to get beyond this stumbling block. Jesus pointed out that not all who profess to be a Christ follower are truly following Him. Why should they allow what someone else professes to be hinder them from considering what Jesus is all about. Don't allow them to side-track on the failings of professing Christians who either have never been born again or are possessing Christians with imperfections in their Christ following, as we all are. So, up front Christians are not perfect people and some have never been made spiritually alive by God. Then go into what the scripture says about us being spiritually dead, etc, etc.

This is just an example of trying to move away from a 'bad story' about a professing Christian to how I might approach moving to the 'good story' of salvation in Jesus. Others would have their way but I think we really should be into discussing these 'fishing techniques'. I have found the JWs and Mormons are way ahead of most Christians in the area of 'making converts' even though they may be making converts to a religion and not to Christ. And Mennonites might do the same. It isn't about converting folk to Anabaptism but rather to Christ.

Wade, I, too, have been in churches of internal conflict and at one point, felt no church attending would be better than running into it again. But it seems to be a fact we have to live with. Hoping you find a group you can work in to further God's Kingdom. I've been around and imo, Anabaptism, in various forms, is lacking in some of the most important areas of furthering God's Kingdom in today's world. I'm thankful I have access to a church with basic Anabaptist beliefs and heavily involved in growing the Kingdom using modern means. Hope you find something even if you must keep certain Anabaptist beliefs to yourself. Others here are doing just that.
I have told a few people a focus on faults rather than God is a problem because whatever guides a persons decisions is their god. Then I ask if they want a person or people that are doing wrong to control their life and direction from God rather than towards our all knowing loving Creator?
I need these reminders too in regards to focus.
A Mennonite said, "You can only love God as much as the person you love the least."
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Your Story

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Sudsy wrote:I guess I disagree with this kind of separation in considering the story of the wheat and the tares. This will be sorted out in the end.
So you don't think we should serate from false prophets and their adherents?
I think the desire to differentiate from apostate and corrupted gospels is important.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

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Wade wrote: I have told a few people a focus on faults rather than God is a problem because whatever guides a persons decisions is their god. Then I ask if they want a person or people that are doing wrong to control their life and direction from God rather than towards our all knowing loving Creator?
I need these reminders too in regards to focus.
A Mennonite said, "You can only love God as much as the person you love the least."
That sounds like a good way to put it to this excuse, I like it. I especially like the phrase 'all knowing loving Creator'. This could raise some challenges to Christian belief that one might need to deal.

Here is one - 'I hear that Christians believe that only those who accept Jesus into their hearts (or something along that line) will go to heaven and the rest, which are the vast majority in this world, will go to a place called hell of unending torturing, punishment. How is that a loving God ?'

Some of the answers Christians have to these kind of questions are very unsatisfying to many of the unchurched. It might be interesting to hear what kind of answer people on this forum give or would give to this question. And I could give more of these which might be a good way for us to have answers relating to the hope we have in Christ.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I guess I disagree with this kind of separation in considering the story of the wheat and the tares. This will be sorted out in the end.
So you don't think we should serate from false prophets and their adherents?
I think the desire to differentiate from apostate and corrupted gospels is important.
Within the local church, I believe there is a separation required. Both Jesus and Paul talked about this. However, talking to an unchurched person would be an area I try to avoid as there still can be some true believers within Christian groups that we think are not proclaiming the true Gospel. For instance, the 'prosperity gospel', I believe still retains the basic beliefs of the Gospel and in this group there are many born again believers. Imo, they are confused about the abundant life Jesus promised and what form it comes in.

My view on this is wheat and tares parable is better explained here -

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-wheat-tares.html
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