Your Story

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
Wade
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Re: Your Story

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote: I have told a few people a focus on faults rather than God is a problem because whatever guides a persons decisions is their god. Then I ask if they want a person or people that are doing wrong to control their life and direction from God rather than towards our all knowing loving Creator?
I need these reminders too in regards to focus.
A Mennonite said, "You can only love God as much as the person you love the least."
That sounds like a good way to put it to this excuse, I like it. I especially like the phrase 'all knowing loving Creator'. This could raise some challenges to Christian belief that one might need to deal.

Here is one - 'I hear that Christians believe that only those who accept Jesus into their hearts (or something along that line) will go to heaven and the rest, which are the vast majority in this world, will go to a place called hell of unending torturing, punishment. How is that a loving God ?'

Some of the answers Christians have to these kind of questions are very unsatisfying to many of the unchurched. It might be interesting to hear what kind of answer people on this forum give or would give to this question. And I could give more of these which might be a good way for us to have answers relating to the hope we have in Christ.
I usually answer that God is holy and just and therefore follows through with consequences. He would have that every man be saved but because He loves you He won't control you in making that choice. Without freewill there is no reciprocal relationship that constitutes a loving relationship. Therefore it is our choice where we spend eternity, with Jesus's death revealing His love and clear choice where He would like us. Thank God for His mercy that He will forgive, and that His mercy even gives us time to repent.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote: I have told a few people a focus on faults rather than God is a problem because whatever guides a persons decisions is their god. Then I ask if they want a person or people that are doing wrong to control their life and direction from God rather than towards our all knowing loving Creator?
I need these reminders too in regards to focus.
A Mennonite said, "You can only love God as much as the person you love the least."
That sounds like a good way to put it to this excuse, I like it. I especially like the phrase 'all knowing loving Creator'. This could raise some challenges to Christian belief that one might need to deal.

Here is one - 'I hear that Christians believe that only those who accept Jesus into their hearts (or something along that line) will go to heaven and the rest, which are the vast majority in this world, will go to a place called hell of unending torturing, punishment. How is that a loving God ?'

Some of the answers Christians have to these kind of questions are very unsatisfying to many of the unchurched. It might be interesting to hear what kind of answer people on this forum give or would give to this question. And I could give more of these which might be a good way for us to have answers relating to the hope we have in Christ.
I usually answer that God is holy and just and therefore follows through with consequences. He would have that every man be saved but because He loves you He won't control you in making that choice. Without freewill there is no reciprocal relationship that constitutes a loving relationship. Therefore it is our choice where we spend eternity, with Jesus's death revealing His love and clear choice where He would like us. Thank God for His mercy that He will forgive, and that His mercy even gives us time to repent.
I like your referral to 'free will' (obvious to me, you are not a Calvinist baptist :) ) but just to challenge the bolded sentence above, the question I have received along these lines - 'So you mean to tell me that God is just to penalized me in sending me to a place of unending torment for what I have done in this short life ? And besides if I am a sinner by nature (assuming this person understands sin in this way) am I not just acting out what I was born to be ? It wasn't my choice to come into this world and be in a state of sin.'

What I hope to do with these questions is to find out what others here say in response to these and am not picking on your replies. In this case, I'm saying the unchurched is finding God to not be a just and loving God with this line of reasoning. How do we explain this kind of justice if we do not regard this kind of penalizing in our human justice ways and yet God loves us more than we could ever fathom ?

I'm happy that you are willing to address these. I think some of us don't have satisfactory answers for questions like these and perhaps are afraid they might come up talking to the unchurched or the churched but not saved.
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Wade
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Re: Your Story

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
That sounds like a good way to put it to this excuse, I like it. I especially like the phrase 'all knowing loving Creator'. This could raise some challenges to Christian belief that one might need to deal.

Here is one - 'I hear that Christians believe that only those who accept Jesus into their hearts (or something along that line) will go to heaven and the rest, which are the vast majority in this world, will go to a place called hell of unending torturing, punishment. How is that a loving God ?'

Some of the answers Christians have to these kind of questions are very unsatisfying to many of the unchurched. It might be interesting to hear what kind of answer people on this forum give or would give to this question. And I could give more of these which might be a good way for us to have answers relating to the hope we have in Christ.
I usually answer that God is holy and just and therefore follows through with consequences. He would have that every man be saved but because He loves you He won't control you in making that choice. Without freewill there is no reciprocal relationship that constitutes a loving relationship. Therefore it is our choice where we spend eternity, with Jesus's death revealing His love and clear choice where He would like us. Thank God for His mercy that He will forgive, and that His mercy even gives us time to repent.
I like your referral to 'free will' (obvious to me, you are not a Calvinist baptist :) ) but just to challenge the bolded sentence above, the question I have received along these lines - 'So you mean to tell me that God is just to penalized me in sending me to a place of unending torment for what I have done in this short life ? And besides if I am a sinner by nature (assuming this person understands sin in this way) am I not just acting out what I was born to be ? It wasn't my choice to come into this world and be in a state of sin.'

What I hope to do with these questions is to find out what others here say in response to these and am not picking on your replies. In this case, I'm saying the unchurched is finding God to not be a just and loving God with this line of reasoning. How do we explain this kind of justice if we do not regard this kind of penalizing in our human justice ways and yet God loves us more than we could ever fathom ?

I'm happy that you are willing to address these. I think some of us don't have satisfactory answers for questions like these and perhaps are afraid they might come up talking to the unchurched or the churched but not saved.
By that point I try to steer them towards the fact that there are natural laws that we cannot change or avoid. To help them see respect towards things like gravity or death. It helps us be responsible.
Unfortunately the last big discussion I had where I used this idea of respecting at least natural laws. The person had approached me with a bunch of his friends around and was poking fun at God and creation. Since his arguments weren't working with me he left saying he wanted to be his own boss and make up his own rules. A couple days later he died from an overdose.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote: By that point I try to steer them towards the fact that there are natural laws that we cannot change or avoid. To help them see respect towards things like gravity or death. It helps us be responsible.
Unfortunately the last big discussion I had where I used this idea of respecting at least natural laws. The person had approached me with a bunch of his friends around and was poking fun at God and creation. Since his arguments weren't working with me he left saying he wanted to be his own boss and make up his own rules. A couple days later he died from an overdose.
Sad to hear. So, it sounds like you skirted the question about how God being just is not how man looks at justice. If skirted it might leave one to think that man is generally more loving than God is. I'm not understanding how you are relating natural laws here.

What can help in these circumstances is using scriptures to reason with. Now sometimes they may go off and say 'Wait a minute, why should I believe the bible. Wasn't that written by various men ?' And then we might have to go back to a start point of our accepting by faith that our beliefs come from a bible that we believe God inspired some 40 writers over many centuries to write. At some point the acceptance that Christianity is based on the scriptures is necessary.

I hope others will join in. Thanks Wade for continuing with this.
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Wade
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Re: Your Story

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote: By that point I try to steer them towards the fact that there are natural laws that we cannot change or avoid. To help them see respect towards things like gravity or death. It helps us be responsible.
Unfortunately the last big discussion I had where I used this idea of respecting at least natural laws. The person had approached me with a bunch of his friends around and was poking fun at God and creation. Since his arguments weren't working with me he left saying he wanted to be his own boss and make up his own rules. A couple days later he died from an overdose.
Sad to hear. So, it sounds like you skirted the question about how God being just is not how man looks at justice. If skirted it might leave one to think that man is generally more loving than God is. I'm not understanding how you are relating natural laws here.

What can help in these circumstances is using scriptures to reason with. Now sometimes they may go off and say 'Wait a minute, why should I believe the bible. Wasn't that written by various men ?' And then we might have to go back to a start point of our accepting by faith that our beliefs come from a bible that we believe God inspired some 40 writers over many centuries to write. At some point the acceptance that Christianity is based on the scriptures is necessary.

I hope others will join in. Thanks Wade for continuing with this.
The reason why I "skirted" was because the questions you mimicked about being born into this world and sinning all have a victim mindset. I think people with a victim mindset need to accept responsibility instead of always skirting around it. Love is responsible. :)

And since we are on this topic I would like to recommend a related book I read last night: God is Good by Gary Miller.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote: By that point I try to steer them towards the fact that there are natural laws that we cannot change or avoid. To help them see respect towards things like gravity or death. It helps us be responsible.
Unfortunately the last big discussion I had where I used this idea of respecting at least natural laws. The person had approached me with a bunch of his friends around and was poking fun at God and creation. Since his arguments weren't working with me he left saying he wanted to be his own boss and make up his own rules. A couple days later he died from an overdose.
Sad to hear. So, it sounds like you skirted the question about how God being just is not how man looks at justice. If skirted it might leave one to think that man is generally more loving than God is. I'm not understanding how you are relating natural laws here.

What can help in these circumstances is using scriptures to reason with. Now sometimes they may go off and say 'Wait a minute, why should I believe the bible. Wasn't that written by various men ?' And then we might have to go back to a start point of our accepting by faith that our beliefs come from a bible that we believe God inspired some 40 writers over many centuries to write. At some point the acceptance that Christianity is based on the scriptures is necessary.

I hope others will join in. Thanks Wade for continuing with this.
The reason why I "skirted" was because the questions you mimicked about being born into this world and sinning all have a victim mindset. I think people with a victim mindset need to accept responsibility instead of always skirting around it. Love is responsible. :)

And since we are on this topic I would like to recommend a related book I read last night: God is Good by Gary Miller.
Thankyou for the recommended book. You make a good point on taking responsibility. We do need to get out of any victim mindset to deal with where we currently find ourselves. I believe prayer is a big factor here to pray against these strongholds in a person's thinking that the Holy Spirit will break through so they can listen beyond those thoughts. I know some soul winners tell me that when they get these kinds of questions they say something like 'Can I get back to you on that question but could I first explain how I believe we obtain eternal life ?' Sometimes we just need that opportunity to get to the basic Gospel message and see how the Spirit uses it.

What I have had trouble obtaining is an Anabaptist version of the Gospel. In an attempt to keep from over simplification we can over complicate the message. For me, it was the simple series of scriptures called the 'Romans road' which was the means God used to bring me and many others to salvation. But it is only one of many ways the Spirit works through to reach the heart of man. And it often takes many conversations as the Spirit works and sometimes through various Christians. I'm not much in favour of forced conversions any more than I am for forced sanctification. If they are not the work of the Spirit they will not produce new creations.
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Wade
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Re: Your Story

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Sad to hear. So, it sounds like you skirted the question about how God being just is not how man looks at justice. If skirted it might leave one to think that man is generally more loving than God is. I'm not understanding how you are relating natural laws here.

What can help in these circumstances is using scriptures to reason with. Now sometimes they may go off and say 'Wait a minute, why should I believe the bible. Wasn't that written by various men ?' And then we might have to go back to a start point of our accepting by faith that our beliefs come from a bible that we believe God inspired some 40 writers over many centuries to write. At some point the acceptance that Christianity is based on the scriptures is necessary.

I hope others will join in. Thanks Wade for continuing with this.
The reason why I "skirted" was because the questions you mimicked about being born into this world and sinning all have a victim mindset. I think people with a victim mindset need to accept responsibility instead of always skirting around it. Love is responsible. :)

And since we are on this topic I would like to recommend a related book I read last night: God is Good by Gary Miller.
Thankyou for the recommended book. You make a good point on taking responsibility. We do need to get out of any victim mindset to deal with where we currently find ourselves. I believe prayer is a big factor here to pray against these strongholds in a person's thinking that the Holy Spirit will break through so they can listen beyond those thoughts. I know some soul winners tell me that when they get these kinds of questions they say something like 'Can I get back to you on that question but could I first explain how I believe we obtain eternal life ?' Sometimes we just need that opportunity to get to the basic Gospel message and see how the Spirit uses it.

What I have had trouble obtaining is an Anabaptist version of the Gospel. In an attempt to keep from over simplification we can over complicate the message. For me, it was the simple series of scriptures called the 'Romans road' which was the means God used to bring me and many others to salvation. But it is only one of many ways the Spirit works through to reach the heart of man. And it often takes many conversations as the Spirit works and sometimes through various Christians. I'm not much in favour of forced conversions any more than I am for forced sanctification. If they are not the work of the Spirit they will not produce new creations.
How about the gospel of Jesus? He continually preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. What the gospel has been defined as today for the most part is a save me gospel.
While being born again actually is the entrance and not the end. Jesus said whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, which to me is why you may have a hard time hearing an Anabaptist gospel, or why one may not recognize what they are saying as the scriptural gospel that Jesus preached.

And yes most of my conversations are actually people I work with and so have had time to get to know me. Which usually means planting ideas and scripture slowly unless they are really asking for it. And I should add like you said much prayer. It is a lot of work and time, but I believe it is a worthwhile investment.
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote: How about the gospel of Jesus? He continually preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. What the gospel has been defined as today for the most part is a save me gospel.
While being born again actually is the entrance and not the end. Jesus said whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, which to me is why you may have a hard time hearing an Anabaptist gospel, or why one may not recognize what they are saying as the scriptural gospel that Jesus preached.

And yes most of my conversations are actually people I work with and so have had time to get to know me. Which usually means planting ideas and scripture slowly unless they are really asking for it. It is a lot of work and time, but I believe it is a worthwhile investment.
Jesus was primarily speaking to a Jewish audience who were mainly interested in a Kingdom that they thought would be established during their time. He gave them various explanations of what the Kingdom of God is like as their views of this Kingdom were pretty earthly. After Pentecost the message was proclaimed well beyond the Jewish community and we see how the Gospel was proclaimed in the book of Acts and through the Epistles. There is mention of the Kingdom being preached in Acts but the focus was on salvation of both Jew and Gentile through belief in what Jesus just accomplished through His death and resurrection. The Holy Spirit guided the early church to explain the entrance and more on the life now in this Kingdom. The apostles preached the same Gospel as Jesus in that Jesus came to save people from their sins. It truly is a 'save me' Gospel. Jesus is The Saviour. The gift offered is eternal life and the Holy Spirit living in us conforming us more and more to reflect this Kingdom life that was preached about.

It appears in some Anabaptist thought that Romans 10:9-13 is not all that is required to be saved. I disagree and once obeyed as written a person becomes a new creation that changes their perspective to give up on the old life to obtain more of the new life. If just approached as a religious formula then the heart cannot be converted.

If there is such a thing as an Anabaptist gospel that Jesus preached about the Kingdom, then what do you think is the problem with so few people coming to believe in Christ through Anabaptism ? Is Jesus only saving a small fraction of 1% of the professing Christians in the world ? Are the 'many will say -------' some 99.9% of those who think they are saved through a 'save me' Gospel ? I'm curious when I hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ sounds like it is different from that preached by the apostles. Thoughts on this ?
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Wade
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Re: Your Story

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote: How about the gospel of Jesus? He continually preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. What the gospel has been defined as today for the most part is a save me gospel.
While being born again actually is the entrance and not the end. Jesus said whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, which to me is why you may have a hard time hearing an Anabaptist gospel, or why one may not recognize what they are saying as the scriptural gospel that Jesus preached.

And yes most of my conversations are actually people I work with and so have had time to get to know me. Which usually means planting ideas and scripture slowly unless they are really asking for it. It is a lot of work and time, but I believe it is a worthwhile investment.
Jesus was primarily speaking to a Jewish audience who were mainly interested in a Kingdom that they thought would be established during their time. He gave them various explanations of what the Kingdom of God is like as their views of this Kingdom were pretty earthly. After Pentecost the message was proclaimed well beyond the Jewish community and we see how the Gospel was proclaimed in the book of Acts and through the Epistles. There is mention of the Kingdom being preached in Acts but the focus was on salvation of both Jew and Gentile through belief in what Jesus just accomplished through His death and resurrection. The Holy Spirit guided the early church to explain the entrance and more on the life now in this Kingdom. The apostles preached the same Gospel as Jesus in that Jesus came to save people from their sins. It truly is a 'save me' Gospel. Jesus is The Saviour. The gift offered is eternal life and the Holy Spirit living in us conforming us more and more to reflect this Kingdom life that was preached about.

It appears in some Anabaptist thought that Romans 10:9-13 is not all that is required to be saved. I disagree and once obeyed as written a person becomes a new creation that changes their perspective to give up on the old life to obtain more of the new life. If just approached as a religious formula then the heart cannot be converted.

If there is such a thing as an Anabaptist gospel that Jesus preached about the Kingdom, then what do you think is the problem with so few people coming to believe in Christ through Anabaptism ? Is Jesus only saving a small fraction of 1% of the professing Christians in the world ? Are the 'many will say -------' some 99.9% of those who think they are saved through a 'save me' Gospel ? I'm curious when I hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ sounds like it is different from that preached by the apostles. Thoughts on this ?
I want to agree always with scripture, and believe that the epistles are to be understood through Jesus's teachings rather than Christ being understood through the epistles. Not to say the epistles are wrong in anyway but when there seems to be conflict then I feel I have missed something with Christ.
Christ proclaimed the reason He was sent in Luke 4:23 - the kingdom of God. Obviously that was not His only reason as yes He died for our transgressions, but I also believe that if someone accepts Christ so they can be saved - they actually may not be according to Christ's words in the sermon on the Mount saying to those calling Him Lord, Lord to depart from Him saying they are workers of iniquity. And Him also saying that someone looking to save His life will lose it but those who give up their life for His sake and the Gospels will save it. If the gospel is a save "me" gospel then what is Christ talking about giving up our life for the gospel?
I do agree with Romans just fine and salvation through Him but often the trouble is that the message that is giving is incomplete and so most miss the kingdom and what Jesus said about seeking it first and His righteousness.
I don't know who all are saved or not? That is between them and God but I do recognize Jesus said there will be few.
To me difference often is a serious sincere heartfelt humble committment, which when we get to know Him better; we can't help but to be drawn deeper by His amazing love and sacrifice.

Recently someone asked, "What do you figure?"
I replied, "What's the equation?"
He said, "I don't know? You always seem so happy. I thought you had it all figured out."
I answered, "I'm saved." :P
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Sudsy
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Re: Your Story

Post by Sudsy »

This perhaps explains better on what I believe is what the Kingdom is about to a believer. I must agree with Anabaptist Greg that this is Kingdom life -

Become a Kingdom citizen and in the power of the gift of the Holy Spirit we are saved from our sinning and are able to portray the Kingdom/Jesus.
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