briar patch

[joshuabgood]

It’s obvious to me that the Kingdom Christian movement is filling a void for Mennonites / Anabaptist, that was filled by Charity in the past.
There are differences, but the similarities are undeniable.

That's a very interesting observation.

There are some common leaders, Dean Taylor/John Martin, etc - however there are very significant differences.

[RZehr]

Sure. And if someone want to focus on the differences, that is fine. No argument from me there.
But I’m suggesting we take a look at the appeal of each movement for plain people and seekers, and it’s symbiotic(?) relationship to Mennonites.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Not spiritually unhealthy, although he does seem to be easily influenced by teaching that I have serious questions about. It seems he is easily sucked in by those who are borderline cult if not a cult. At one point he was with this group https://gloriavale.org.nz/, which if you research (in fact you will find it on their own website) is IMO not much more than a sex cult. He picked up some teaching there that he promotes today. Personally, I do not consider him to be doctrinally sound.

Bill Gothard on steroids?

J.M.

I don't know that he is Gothard on steroids, but the fact that he is Anabaptist makes folks more likely to fall for some of his teaching such as consubstantiation and the annihilation of the wicked.

I was talking about Gloryvale.
It looks to me like someone got ahold of some Gothard material and said”how far can we push this.”

As to Hover, Yeah, I have seen his writing and wondered how he could have come to those positions. Almost as bad as the folks that teach systematic theology out of Grudem.

It puzzles me.

J.M.

[Wayne in Maine]

It’s obvious to me that the Kingdom Christian movement is filling a void for Mennonites / Anabaptist, that was filled by Charity in the past.
There are differences, but the similarities are undeniable.

I have long referred to that movement as this Mennonite generation's Charity.

[Wayne in Maine]

It’s obvious to me that the Kingdom Christian movement is filling a void for Mennonites / Anabaptist, that was filled by Charity in the past.
There are differences, but the similarities are undeniable.

That's a very interesting observation.

There are some common leaders, Dean Taylor/John Martin, etc - however there are very significant differences.

John D Martin is not really a leader in that movement. I'm not even sure he knows all of what is happening in the movement (he doesn't use Internet). I was hoping to visit FOTW with him and to spend some time discussing the movement in person with him but that was scheduled for April and his visit was canceled.

[Wayne in Maine]

I did not know Hoover believed in those things.

Those beliefs are very strong in the Kingdom Christian movement, particularly Followers of the Way.

I'm trying to figure out what "beliefs" we are talking about here. I know Peter took up glossolalia from his visit to Gloriavale, and he has strongly defended them, but I don't know what other beliefs or ideas he picked up from them.

Consubstantiation:
#1. Belief in the “real presence” of the body and blood of Christ in the communion meal, similar to the Lutheran position. Admirers of Bercot’s writings and “early church” tend to acquire this belief.

Annihilation of the wicked:
#2. A belief that those who aren’t resurrected to eternal life just cease to exist. This is also a common thing to pop up in those who are exploring early church beliefs.

If Hoover holds to these things, the question remains if he influenced Bercot and other KCs, or if Bercot and KCs influenced Hoover. I can attest that the community in Tasmania did not promote these beliefs at all, although some of them are open minded towards charismatic types of experiences.

I know those doctrines, I just am confused about the assertion that he picked them up from Gloriavale. FOTW derives consubstantiation from some of the early church writings. I see consubstantiation in early church writings as evidence of the drift of the early church into the type of paganism that made it possible for an emperor to join "the church".

[Biblical Anabaptist]

I'm trying to figure out what "beliefs" we are talking about here. I know Peter took up glossolalia from his visit to Gloriavale, and he has strongly defended them, but I don't know what other beliefs or ideas he picked up from them.

Consubstantiation:
#1. Belief in the “real presence” of the body and blood of Christ in the communion meal, similar to the Lutheran position. Admirers of Bercot’s writings and “early church” tend to acquire this belief.

Annihilation of the wicked:
#2. A belief that those who aren’t resurrected to eternal life just cease to exist. This is also a common thing to pop up in those who are exploring early church beliefs.

If Hoover holds to these things, the question remains if he influenced Bercot and other KCs, or if Bercot and KCs influenced Hoover. I can attest that the community in Tasmania did not promote these beliefs at all, although some of them are open minded towards charismatic types of experiences.

I know those doctrines, I just am confused about the assertion that he picked them up from Gloriavale. FOTW derives consubstantiation from some of the early church writings. I see consubstantiation in early church writings as evidence of the drift of the early church into the type of paganism that made it possible for an emperor to join "the church".

I don't know where Hoover got his beliefs or who influenced who. He pushes the idea of observing the Eucharist at least every week ad nauseam which, IMO, is an outgrowth of consubstantiation. I was under the impression that the weekly Eucharist was picked up at Gloraville but I could be mistaken.

[joshuabgood]

That's a very interesting observation.

There are some common leaders, Dean Taylor/John Martin, etc - however there are very significant differences.

John D Martin is not really a leader in that movement. I'm not even sure he knows all of what is happening in the movement (he doesn't use Internet). I was hoping to visit FOTW with him and to spend some time discussing the movement in person with him but that was scheduled for April and his visit was canceled.

I see the Kingdom Christian movement as distinct from FOTW. FOTW is probably under the larger umbrella, however, I think the movement is much larger and would include folks like Bates, McKnight, as well as the Kingdom Fellowship Weekend folks (where FOTW has had a frequent role, but only as a participant, not a "driver" if my understanding is correct (Ernie could probably confirm)).

[Josh]

KFW is distinct from the "Kingdom Christian" movement; KFW started as a youth gathering of Charity youth. Given the way Charity's culture worked at the time, this meant a lot of the youth parents wanted to come too, and speakers ended up being organised.

KFW still has a strong element of it simply being a place for like-minded youth to gather and meet one another. The speakers in attendance will follow whatever the present zeitgeist of the Charity movement is.

I would consider FOTW to be entirely part of the "Kingdom Christian" movement, but there is lots of the "Kingdom Christian" movement outside of FOTW. An open question I have is if Shippensburg Christian Fellowship is even part of the KC movement anymore; my gut feeling is that, no, it is not.

[mike]

I would consider FOTW to be entirely part of the "Kingdom Christian" movement, but there is lots of the "Kingdom Christian" movement outside of FOTW. An open question I have is if Shippensburg Christian Fellowship is even part of the KC movement anymore; my gut feeling is that, no, it is not.

SCF has always been staunchly conservative Anabaptist, and although they are not your typical conservative Mennonite church, they were always skeptical of Charity in spite of various connections over the years, and may likely feel similarly about the Kingdom Christian movement, whatever that is, if in fact it is something seen as divergent from conservative Anabaptism.