An open letter to ozarkbreeze

[Judas Maccabeus]

Steve has never been willing to publicly address the rather serious allegations that he has mishandled abuse cases.

How should he have addressed it?

Same way as CAM did.

J.M.

In short, there is an issue to answer. If you have a very public ministry and are selling seats at your conferences, you need to either answer this sort of issue, or expect that questions will be asked in the same public manner as your conferences.

J.M.

[Mrs.Nisly]

Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.

See this kind of thing drives me nuts.
Hidden knowledge...
Trust him because I said so and I know...
There's a conspiracy of silence...
There's a cabal of power...
There's a secret war going on...and on...and on.

Can you give one good reason why a person should be trusted just because they're told to?

Oh dear - I can't get this right. Sorry, Mrs. Nisly, I am probably too much like the old deacon in the story: Someone came to the old deacon with a problem - he listened to his story and said "Ach ya, you are right." Then the second party to the problem came to the old deacon with his side of the story and he responded "Ach ya, you are right." The old deacon's wife heard both conversations and told him that he had agreed with both men. He responded "Ach ya, mommy, you are right."

We just read Galatians 5 tonight and verse 15 stuck out in relation to this discussion "But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another."

You see, none of the points you mention apply to me, trust me, Mrs. Nisly. I don't have hidden knowledge, and I am not part of a conspiracy or a cabal of power or involved in a secret war. I just thought Josh had adequately explained where he stood and also thought RP had concerns that I normally share.

We do have a problem in some of our Plain Anabaptist churches that have contributed to or caused this CAM and Jeriah Mast issue and I want for us all to work together to see what we can do about the issue. Steve Stutzman has been involved in good work similar to what Trudy Metzger has been. We don't all agree with their methods, but I think we all agree that there is a problem that has to be dealt with. Let's do so as peacefully as we can.

Let me clarify, I wasn't really responding to you personally, but I was responding in frustration to the idea that everyone should unquestioningly trust Josh and Trudy Metzger for that matter, simply because they say we should, and they actively go after anyone who raises any questions.

Steve Stutzman isn't on Social Media, blogging, or on MN actively defending himself over and over, or shutting down questions about why he should be trusted. Yet insinuations are made, and tales are told about him to damage his reputation, and because he doesn't deny it we think it must be true?

How twisted is our thinking?

I don't know if Steve Stutzman is an honest player or not. I don't know if Josh, Trudy Metzger, or any of you are either.

Unless we can see the entire body of evidence we are left with "bite and devour" and I really don't want to be consumed.

Everything we are told is simply hearsay, and we should treat it like that.

[Hats Off]

See this kind of thing drives me nuts.
Hidden knowledge...
Trust him because I said so and I know...
There's a conspiracy of silence...
There's a cabal of power...
There's a secret war going on...and on...and on.

Can you give one good reason why a person should be trusted just because they're told to?

Oh dear - I can't get this right. Sorry, Mrs. Nisly, I am probably too much like the old deacon in the story: Someone came to the old deacon with a problem - he listened to his story and said "Ach ya, you are right." Then the second party to the problem came to the old deacon with his side of the story and he responded "Ach ya, you are right." The old deacon's wife heard both conversations and told him that he had agreed with both men. He responded "Ach ya, mommy, you are right."

We just read Galatians 5 tonight and verse 15 stuck out in relation to this discussion "But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another."

You see, none of the points you mention apply to me, trust me, Mrs. Nisly. I don't have hidden knowledge, and I am not part of a conspiracy or a cabal of power or involved in a secret war. I just thought Josh had adequately explained where he stood and also thought RP had concerns that I normally share.

We do have a problem in some of our Plain Anabaptist churches that have contributed to or caused this CAM and Jeriah Mast issue and I want for us all to work together to see what we can do about the issue. Steve Stutzman has been involved in good work similar to what Trudy Metzger has been. We don't all agree with their methods, but I think we all agree that there is a problem that has to be dealt with. Let's do so as peacefully as we can.

Let me clarify, I wasn't really responding to you personally, but I was responding in frustration to the idea that everyone should unquestioningly trust Josh and Trudy Metzger for that matter, simply because they say we should, and they actively go after anyone who raises any questions.

Steve Stutzman isn't on Social Media, blogging, or on MN actively defending himself over and over, or shutting down questions about why he should be trusted. Yet insinuations are made, and tales are told about him to damage his reputation, and because he doesn't deny it we think it must be true?

How twisted is our thinking?

I don't know if Steve Stutzman is an honest player or not. I don't know if Josh, Trudy Metzger, or any of you are either.

Unless we can see the entire body of evidence we are left with "bite and devour" and I really don't want to be consumed.

Everything we are told is simply hearsay, and we should treat it like that.

Years ago a brother came to me and said about an issue in the church "This isn't right! That brother isn't being treated right!" I told him "We have a group of trustworthy deacons who must know what is going on. We can't ask for a court type of situation where we ask for all evidence that affected this situation. We have to trust them." Now, many years later, I wish I had listened to him. There is a point where we have an obligation to ask questions and to expect answers. I want to love and trust every one. It is painful when we find we shouldn't do that. So I agree with you to a large extent. I just want to believe everyone and yet this seems to be impossible.

This whole CAM issue hurts - we have been having a major church issue which seems to have overtones of this CAM issue - and we just lost a 14 year old granddaughter to heart failure. Sometimes it gets to be just a little much. My daughter just told me for my own good I should deal with one loss at a time.

[Grace]

Let me clarify, I wasn't really responding to you personally, but I was responding in frustration to the idea that everyone should unquestioningly trust Josh and Trudy Metzger for that matter, simply because they say we should, and they actively go after anyone who raises any questions.

Steve Stutzman isn't on Social Media, blogging, or on MN actively defending himself over and over, or shutting down questions about why he should be trusted. Yet insinuations are made, and tales are told about him to damage his reputation, and because he doesn't deny it we think it must be true?

How twisted is our thinking?

I don't know if Steve Stutzman is an honest player or not. I don't know if Josh, Trudy Metzger, or any of you are either.

Unless we can see the entire body of evidence we are left with "bite and devour" and I really don't want to be consumed.

Everything we are told is simply hearsay, and we should treat it like that.

Well said, thanks. Those who are confident in their claims, usually welcome questions.

[Mrs.Nisly]

Hats Off said,

Years ago a brother came to me and said about an issue in the church "This isn't right! That brother isn't being treated right!" I told him "We have a group of trustworthy deacons who must know what is going on. We can't ask for a court type of situation where we ask for all evidence that affected this situation. We have to trust them." Now, many years later, I wish I had listened to him. There is a point where we have an obligation to ask questions and to expect answers. I want to love and trust every one. It is painful when we find we shouldn't do that. So I agree with you to a large extent. I just want to believe everyone and yet this seems to be impossible.

This whole CAM issue hurts - we have been having a major church issue which seems to have overtones of this CAM issue - and we just lost a 14 year old granddaughter to heart failure. Sometimes it gets to be just a little much. My daughter just told me for my own good I should deal with one loss at a time.

I am very sorry for your loss, Hats Off. I understand personal grief. I was there 10 years ago when my own daughter died. It takes many years to grieve, find perspective, and healing.

Wisdom comes from our experiences in a broken world. The younger the person, the more they need to be able to trust safe people because they don't have the wisdom for living. As we get older, we begin to realize we all have feet of clay. The world is broken because we are broken.

But the wonder of the gospel is that Jesus came to enter into our broken world, and that by following him into our own brokenness and pain, we like Paul in Colossians 1:24 can "rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..."

[Mrs.Nisly]

Wisdom comes from our experiences in a broken world.

Let me clarify this. Wisdom from God comes to our experiences in a broken world.

James 3:13-18
" Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false with the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."

[Josh]

Steve Stutzman isn't on Social Media, blogging, or on MN actively defending himself over and over, or shutting down questions about why he should be trusted. Yet insinuations are made, and tales are told about him to damage his reputation, and because he doesn't deny it we think it must be true?

Actually, Stutzman has been quite active on social media, and chimed in plenty about this issue. And, yes, any questions got shut down along with plenty of personal attacks, as if asking a question is somehow a bad thing.

[Josh]

Well said, thanks. Those who are confident in their claims, usually welcome questions.

I’d welcome any questions.

Some things can’t be shared publicly. Some of these things can be shared privately. If you really want to know, contact myself or Trudy Metzger.

[Josh]

I don’t have to “prove” anything. The abuser consented to be recorded giving a confession. The victim pressed charges. The police and prosecutor prosecuted. The end.

Do you have links to the court case or anything of that nature?

The grand jury did not indict, so the prosecution had to drop the case.

As far as the perpetrator themselves, they eventually did confess in front of church, although they did not confess everything. They also allowed a recorded confession.

The problem here is that 2 years before this all happened, I questioned whether the perpetrator should be spending a lot of time with the victim. I raised this to Stutzman, his board, the perpetrator, his wife, and his church’s leadership.

In return for this, I was the subject of a harassment campaign from Stutzman’s followers. To this day it makes no sense. And Stutzman has taken zero responsibility for what happened.

My heart was to help a wayward brother not fall into terrible sin. It seems most around the situation somehow didn’t want to stop that. It grieves me to this day.

I wonder if any of you know or care how either the perpetrator or victim are doing.

[temporal1]

There aren’t “two sides to the story”. There’s exactly one version of the truth that’s actually true.

CAM did not have a “side”. At first they were silent. Then they issued a misleading press releases.

After significant pressure applied directly to their board, CAM started issuing statements much closer to the truth.

This “two sides to every story” thing needs to stop.

Why does it have to stop? And yes there is only one version of the truth that is true, but how do you find that version without hearing all sides? Should we just take your version as truth and discount everyone else's? To expect that is both arrogant and presumptuous.

How can anyone find out the truth, when only one person’s perspective is purported? I had a teacher once who had us look at a Thomas Kincaid painting. We were to study it for five minutes, then he put the painting away, and asked us what we saw. Everyone had a different take on the painting, based what they saw through their own mindset and lens. What one person saw, the next person may not have seen at all. No one was wrong in what they saw, but their perspectives were all different. Even in our courts the plaintiff and the defendant have a right to give their side of the story, with the goal to find the truth.

From Proverbs 18

13 Spouting off before listening to the facts is both shameful and foolish.

17 The first to speak in court sounds right—until the cross-examination begins.

BTW, this is in NO WAY defending Jeriah Mast, even though he deserves his day in court.

Very good post.

Jeriah has in fact been telling his side of the story for at least some of the allegations.
I believe some of the arrests might have been because of his admissions, but I could be mistaken.

A lot of people don’t understand the idea that if a serial predator like Jeriah doesn’t deserve his “day in court”, the alternative is a lawless society in which no one is safe from injustice.

Agreed.
i think i understand Josh’s intent on this, i’m not in total agreement.
certainly, two people can honestly describe everything they know/witnessed, yet, one description, alone, may not paint the whole picture, often it does not.

another complication about confessions is, in the legal world, there are false confessions, due to different reasons, but they are false, proof is needed. there are forced confessions, and, sometimes, there are confessions intended to protect others, as in a parent for a child, or child for parent. there are confessions intended to be grandiose.

i do not suspect this is the case with JMast, but, as i read, i recall different cases.

one widely known example was a man who claimed he killed Jon Benet Ramsey, proven false.
less known, currently, a local man is being tried for a grisly murder, he is claiming he killed 12 more.
personally, i suspect his claims of 12 more murders are sick hyperbole, but, i have no actual idea.

confessions are extremely important. for Christians, they are part of salvation.
but, in courts of law, they are not “everything.”

a useful old Russian proverb, “Trust but verify,” was popularized by Reagan.