ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:46 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:50 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:00 pm
Can you explain this quote, then?
What denomination, type of church etc is Mr Hershberger in now?
I find anyone who claims the Amish misunderstand the Beatitudes to be a bit suspect against the background of widespread American Christianity that completely misunderstands the Beatitudes starting with Jesus’ rather clear directions to us not to do violence to others.
I also suspect most Amish wouldn’t agree with Mr Hershberger’s claim that the Amish have wrong doctrine about justification and salvation. (Perhaps some New Orders in the past would have, and of course any CA group that embraces Lutheran doctrines about salvation.)
I do not know German, either one of the German dialects or languages involved, so I do not have an opinion regarding the meaning of the words concerned.
But I do know Hank, and he is not only a native speaker of PA German, but is also a trained linguist. He & his wife Ruth did a translation for an aboriginal group, and worked on his own language in his spare time, on furloughs. Then after they finished the work in Australia, he worked full-time on the translation work here. But I know neither High German nor PA German well enough to make any response on what he is quoted here as having said.
I don't know who is quoted as saying that "Amish church leaders remain suspicious of the Pennsylvania Dutch Bible", but as I know from talking with him, he worked with a translation committee made up of Amishmen, so I doubt if that is true of all, or even most, Amish Bishops and ministers. It is also true, however, that because of the nature of my business, I have very little contact with Dan church people, or Tobe Amish, and certainly not Swartzentrubers. (In the past, when I went to nearly every Mt Hope machinery auction, I often talked with Swartzentrubers, and would sometimes run into one of them later somewhere else, & they are always friendly. More like Okies that anyone else I ever meet in this area.)
Hank is quoted in this press release. Whether the writer quoted him accurately or not I wouldn't know.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/amish-need-scripture/
I am seriously skeptical of any claim that confusion about the Beatitudes is the cause of any kind of a "works religion" among the Amish. I also have deep reservations about any kind of "Christianity" that thinks the Beatitudes are some kind of optional exercise "for additional credit."
From what I have seen here (I have no other sources), Hank never said obedience to the injunctions of Jesus in that passage are "optional". The person who quoted him MAY have put words in his mouth - that happens, as I illustrated. And it is not just the secular media who does this sort of dishonest journalism. That's why I included the personal story of WBT's on false reporting "on my behalf". But let's not put words in Hank's mouth here, either.
I'm not saying that obedience to these commands (or any others in Scripture) are "optional", or "not essential". But it is an affront to both the Scripture AND God's grace through Jesus Christ, to imply that salvation is to be attributed to our personal obedience. Instead, the Scripture teaches that the one who believes WILL obey. It is not "an additional requirement" - it is a natural and automatic result of true belief. The question here is not whether Hank, or anyone else thinks that obedience is or is not a Christian response to God's grace, the question is "Do some Amish (or any of us, for that matter) think that we somehow EARN salvation, or DESERVE the continuance of it?" In Jesus' own words, His response to those who think they are earning their status as children of God is clear: "I never knew you."
Maybe I missed the link to the article earlier in this discussion, but thanks for including that. I just now read it. Whether I ever saw it before I cannot say, since it is from nearly 10 years ago. I do not think I've ever heard of Mission Network News before, but I DO forget a lot. I looked at their main page, and it is not an agency of WBT, and the author/editor of the piece does not provide any source document information. So it's already second-hand. The section title "Going Amish" is in itself not accurate. Hank grew up Amish, but neither he nor his wife "went Amish" in order to do this translation project. He DOES include himself in the statement as quoted in this article, where he is reported as having said “We do not understand High German very well,” Hank explains. “Our language is not that close to High German.”
An older man I knew (he passed away many years ago) told a story about the misunderstandings that can take place across these linguistic barriers. He also grew up Amish, and related a story about a sermon his own brother, an Amish minister, gave. He was talking about Abram, and how he left Ur of the Chaldees, but he confused "Ur" with the PA German for 'clock', and went on to talk about how Abram came from an advanced cultural center (this part is true) where they had a huge clock.
Another story. The other employees at farm equipment manufacturing plant where I worked after resigning from WBT were all Amish except for myself, and two "English" guys. This was during the period of 2004 - early 2007, when the puppy business was really taking off in this community. The men were talking about something that had come up in the Amish church about giving money that had come from raising puppies.
Deut. 23:18 (KJV)
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Some ministers were saying that the proceeds from puppy sales could not be given to the church, because it is "Hundt Gelt". This is not a linguistic misunderstanding, but just a lack of understanding the symbolism used by Moses (ultimately, possibly the very words of God Himself) in this passage.
Luther (1545)
18 Du sollst keinen Hurenlohn noch Hundgeld in das Haus Gottes, deines HERRN, bringen aus irgend einem Gelübde; denn das ist dem HERRN, deinem Gott, beides ein Greuel.
Pennsylvania Deitsch
18 Diah sellet's huahra-lohn-geld funn en manskal adda veibsmensh huah nett in's haus fumm Hah eiyah Gott bringa, even fa en fashprechnis-opfah. Da Hah hast si awl zvay.
NET:
You must never bring the pay of a female prostitute or the wage of a male prostitute into the temple of the LORD your God in fulfillment of any vow, for both of these are abhorrent to the LORD your God.
Those of you who know both High German & Deitsch can report which best conveys the actual meaning. (I cannot say how the Deitsch translates it in comparison to the meaning behind the slur against male prostitution.)
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.