Sudsy wrote:Valerie wrote:Sudsy wrote:I don't think we will settle the issue here that has been around for centuries regarding restrictions by gender on God furthering His Kingdom through His people. I think I have stated why allowing unrestricted WIML is not an issue for me when selecting a church and provided a link for scriptural support of that view. Others here seem to see this as a drift into worldly thinking and some appear to treat it as a sin unto death. For me, this issue and active gays in ministry are two very different situations. As a 'pro' moving to a more 'liberal' church I would say it may allow one to sooner develop personal convictions and to accept how others work out their salvation that is different from how I do it.
I am not sure Sudsy, how one could read Scripture about this issue with women as 'leaders' . Is it a coincidence, that the very morning I shared 1 Timothy 2 on this question with you- that while driving home for lunch, this very same question came up on Christian radio in my 7 minute drive? This former pastor- who does Bible Q & A on Moody Radio- received this question in those few minutes I was listening and he answered with the same exact passage of Scripture- BUT he went further than I did to emphasize
You can have a listen here: (I think you'd enjoy this Bible Q & A)
https://www.moodyradio.org/programs/ope ... open-line/
The caller brings up the exact question you do- was it a 'cultural' thing back then?
This question is brought up at the end of the hour of Q & A
SO- lets look at the passage again:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
The pastor brings up not only was the 'woman' deceived but the order of creation is in place- these 2 aspects are timeless.
So what do we have? The Church's 2000 year history, where a woman was never a pastor- until 'lately'- this does not deny that women have gifts, but they are suseptable to deception- AND their role as 'authoratative'- these do not change with time- and as others have brought up, these denominations that have allowed it, are now going astray in other Biblical areas-
I certainly agree with this- I wouldn't attend a Church with a female pastor because she is already questioning, like Eve did, "Hath God indeed said"? the serpent deceived Eve in this manner, which is why Apostle Paul brings this up-when we question Apostolic doctrine about this issue, we are doing the same thing Eve did- 'questioning if God really said this'- Well, yes He did, as Apostle Paul spoke by the Holy Spirit-
Your 2nd point about the same people who teach against female pastors teach to baptize by pouring which you see as disobedience-because Baptism is by immersion-
I read recently a question by an Orthodox Christian who asked if he should be baptized 'again' because the first time, he was not 'immersed' but the water was poured on him.
As strongly as the Orthodox teach about immersion being the true 'way' of baptizing since the beginning- they have made allowances for pouring- as Boot brought up- the first century Didache allows for pouring when immersion isn't convenient- the replies to this Orthodox Christian questioning his own pouring baptism was that DEFINITELY his baptism was valid because it was 'in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit', and even as strict as the ORthodox is about baptism- they will allow pouring and does not nullify one's baptism- it is valid, and not disobedient according to the 2000 history of the Church. Not the preferable way, but also not discounted.
Thankyou for the link and I listened to that explanation. I still disagree and go with the explanation by this Anabaptist preacher that imo, ties in best with other scriptures on what men and women can do. If you want to zero in on the explanation on verses 13 and 14 start about the 34 minute point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDHm7uplV6w
Regarding water baptism, regardless of what the Orthodox have made allowance for in pouring, explain to me how this pouring allowance symbolizes what Paul said about dying to sin and being resurrected to new life as only immersion symbolizes. Looks to me like they were trying to accommodate another method for some reason way back then. Things like running cold water and pre-baptismal fasting also got added to what we read in scripture. When things outside scripture (the oral tradition or the didache) do not correspond to what we read happened in scripture, I believe many of us see these as add ons by man. Personally I view other modes of baptism as disobedience as it is always referred to in scripture as the word used- 'immersion'. Will God accept that form of baptism ? Imo, yes, because it is an initial action that if it has intentions of saying we have been born again and we are identifying ourselves as a new Christ follower, then that is what is most important even though it loses it's picturesque way of this happening. I don't agree that there should be a tie to local church membership. They were not 'joining a local church' in the NT through immersion but they were saying they were now part of 'The Church' of Christ. This, too, imo, was an add on link outside scripture. Should a new believer join other believers in a local church ? Yes, as a new babe in Christ will naturally do that to find spiritual food and fellowship. Well, I'm wandering off topic here.
Anyway, if the previous link is not preferred as it does have a lady preacher in it, here was an earlier explanation about how gender is not a NC issue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYiVjTwOWt8
You may find other interesting challenges in the Twisted Scripture series. I like the one on Romans 9, the key support for Calvinism - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akmIf4WIWs0
Imo, there are various traditional beliefs that need a closer look. As not being the primary audience just what is timeless for us and what is not ?
Sudsy, this is so easy to conclude as false teaching & false doctrine- there is no way it could be considered an Anabaptist Church- that's the first error here-
Secondly, I listened to this entire message- it is easy to detect so much error in this. I hope that a man of God on this forum would take the time with you to go through each and every statement in this teaching to show you wear this is false teaching- clearly, it is a case of 'mixing the truth with a lie'- this is satan's best weapon- both Boyd & Nikole are doing this!
This is false teaching on many levels and no- we are not 'new agers' embracing my truth is ok and your truth is ok- there is absolute truth on the matter-
Listening to both of them, although they may love the Lord, I feel they are both clearly deceived- could never embrace any more teaching by either one- they hope the scales fall off of 'others' eyes- I would tend to hope the same for them-
They have both been influenced by false teachers themselves, have bought the lie. Mixing the truth w/lies is also timesless and this is a perfect example about not rightly dividing the Word of Truth- please reconsider letting Boyd being an influence in your life-
For me 'personally', the fact that Saturday morning I shared 1 Timothy 2 with you- and in a very rare case of me going home for lunch, the pastor on Moody radio had the EXACT same question and answer in my 7 min drive to work 3 hours later- was confirmation to me, (I RARELY go home for lunch but did Saturday and caught this in that short drive! I confess I thought it was then to share with you Sudsy, but perhaps just confirmation to me, plus the history of the 2000 year church supports it) although this matter has been settled in me throughout my life in Christ- there's never been a question in my heart & mind that women are to have pastoral roles- if a woman feels 'called' to a pastoral role, she, like Eve, proves what Paul said- women can be deceived, and lead men, (like Adam) down the path of deception with them- on this-
Again, I hope that one of the men can go over all that is said here line by line, statement by statement, why this is false teaching-
Another thing- most Godly women I know who have the Holy Spirit, do not feel held 'captive' to not be pastors-
This 48 min of teaching upsets me very much-
So I listened to another of his messages, as so many denominations have split over both issues- women pastors, and the gay issue:
Convinced me even more why these kind of teachers are the false teachers that Jesus & the Apostles warned of in the Last Days.