Coming to a city near me

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Judas Maccabeus » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:21 pm

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I agree with you for the most effective way to change a soul, one on one, evangelizing, discipleship etc- but I think that the application was not just for that period of time, I really don't believe that God wants ungodly rulers to make ungodly laws and to legalize what He calls sin. That is not at the heart of the God I know- now making things legal or illegal does not make one a Christian- but Jesus said whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble -

Matthew 18:6-7King James Version (KJV)

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

I am not suggesting that we should be all about expecting laws to make Christians- but I also do not agree with legalizing sin such as abortion and homosexuality-for example. These 'little ones' Jesus is speaking about not stumbling, may not be growing up in Christian environments and they are led to believe this sin is okay- they may be deep in sin, because it has become legal and therefore it must be alright- just sharing my thoughts on this- because I do feel the Church at large needs to be an influence here- MORE in the way you say, but not exclusively-


We all want good laws. But should we try to achieve this by mixing ourselves with the civil powers, or by praying for them. I will contend the latter may be the most effective. The former clearly does not work, and exposes the church to the influence of the civil authorities.

J.M.

I might say to this then, are the prayers being heard of those who chose to pray only?
The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man, availeth much- (James 5:16)- I know that by our prayers and faith mingled with our prayers, can move mountains- so affecting the government by prayers alone, could accomplish much. But what do we see? Government getting more evil, making more evil laws, and affecting the morality of our land in general.
Is God listening to the prayers of those who contend to 'only' pray? If so, where is the evidence, if not- why not? Are they not fervent enough? After all the laws of the land, affect all- affect the children- who we care for- being affected.
Some might add faith without works is dead- i suppose i can admire those who contend for the faith and hope to affect the government to affect the laws of the land to align to good and not evil- (as Romans 13 points out the purpose for Gov't) and if everyone involved in government is a non believer, then they will not even know the difference between good and evil.

If, as you suggest, the 'former' does not work- how can you verify that 'praying only' works? Just pondering this-


Because it is commanded:

1 Tim 2:1-3 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior,

It works because doing God's will always "works." Maybe not as we define it.

J.M.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby ken_sylvania » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:14 pm

Valerie wrote:I might say to this then, are the prayers being heard of those who chose to pray only?
The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man, availeth much- (James 5:16)- I know that by our prayers and faith mingled with our prayers, can move mountains- so affecting the government by prayers alone, could accomplish much. But what do we see? Government getting more evil, making more evil laws, and affecting the morality of our land in general.
Is God listening to the prayers of those who contend to 'only' pray? If so, where is the evidence, if not- why not? Are they not fervent enough? After all the laws of the land, affect all- affect the children- who we care for- being affected.
Some might add faith without works is dead- i suppose i can admire those who contend for the faith and hope to affect the government to affect the laws of the land to align to good and not evil- (as Romans 13 points out the purpose for Gov't) and if everyone involved in government is a non believer, then they will not even know the difference between good and evil.

If, as you suggest, the 'former' does not work- how can you verify that 'praying only' works? Just pondering this-


Is what we see today really more evil than the brutality visited upon millions of enslaved people in this country between 1600 and 1800? Is it really more evil than the burning alive of the native inhabitants of this land by the early settlers? Is it really more evil than the rebellion against authority demonstrated by the founders of this country?

I'd suggest that if government is getting more evil, it is not occurring at a faster rate than the average increase in evil among the inhabitants of this country. Evil men will continue getting worse, but Jesus never told us to try to fix that by force.
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Valerie » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:39 am

ken_sylvania wrote:Is what we see today really more evil than the brutality visited upon millions of enslaved people in this country between 1600 and 1800? Is it really more evil than the burning alive of the native inhabitants of this land by the early settlers? Is it really more evil than the rebellion against authority demonstrated by the founders of this country?

I would have to go back to study history in such a way I suppose, different then the public schooling I received. If this government during this period was so 'evil', I am really surprised the Anabaptists chose America for refuge.

I'd suggest that if government is getting more evil, it is not occurring at a faster rate than the average increase in evil among the inhabitants of this country. Evil men will continue getting worse, but Jesus never told us to try to fix that by force.


Romans 13 was written to convey that our government is set up by God to be ministers of righteousness and use the sword against evil- at least that is what the passage conveys. using the sword I guess is what would be considered 'by force' -
we are to pray for the government that we would all live in peace- if a righteous man's prayers for government are 'availing much' then we should hope to see some turning around of laws where evil was made legal. This is how I see it, at least-
may not be how Anabaptist see it in general- but again- there was some reason Anabaptist chose America for refuge during this evil period you are conveying, and there were Anabaptists from what I read involved in gov't of our founding fathers- I don't think they stayed long though. I read there were so many denominations represented in our founding fathers days of government they even found it difficult to pray together.
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Hats Off
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Hats Off » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:06 am

From the Dordrecht Confession of Faith:
XIII. Of the Office of the Secular Authority
We believe and confess that God has ordained power and authority, and set them to punish the evil, and protect the good, to govern the world, and maintain countries and cities, with their subjects, in good order and regulation; and that we, therefore, may not despise, revile, or resist the same, but must acknowledge and honor them as the ministers of God, and be subject and obedient unto them, yea, ready for all good works, especially in that which is not contrary to the law, will, and commandment of God; also faithfully pay custom, tribute, and taxes, and to render unto them their dues, even also as the Son of God taught and practiced, and commanded His disciples to do; that we, moreover, must constantly and earnestly pray to the Lord for them and their welfare, and for the prosperity of the country, that we may dwell under its protection, earn our livelihood, and lead a quiet, peaceable life, with all godliness and honesty; and, furthermore, that the Lord would recompense unto them, here, and afterwards in eternity, all benefits, liberty, and favor which we enjoy here under their praiseworthy administration. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:17; Matthew 22:21; Matthew 17:27; 1 Timothy 2:1.
XIV. Of Revenge
As regards revenge, that is, to oppose an enemy with the sword, we believe and confess that the Lord Christ has forbidden and set aside to His disciples and followers all revenge and retaliation, and commanded them to render to no one evil for evil, or cursing for cursing, but to put the sword into the sheath, or, as the prophets have predicted, to beat the swords into ploughshares. Matthew 5:39, 44; Romans 12:14; 1 Peter 3:9; Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 9:8, 9.
From this we understand that therefore, and according to His example, we must not inflict pain, harm, or sorrow upon any one, but seek the highest welfare and salvation of all men, and even, if necessity require it, flee for the Lord's sake from one city or country into another, and suffer the spoiling of our goods; that we must not harm any one, and, when we are smitten, rather turn the other cheek also, than take revenge or retaliate. Matthew 5:39.

And, moreover, that we must pray for our enemies, feed and refresh them whenever they are hungry or thirsty, and thus convince them by well-doing, and overcome all ignorance. Romans 12:19, 20.

Finally, that we must do good and commend ourselves to every man's conscience; and, according to the law of Christ, do unto no one that which we would not have done to us. 2 Corinthians 4:2; Matthew 7:12.

And always when we pray, we pray based on Jesus' own example "Not my will but yours be done." Notice also that we acknowledge that it is possible that governments do not always give us what we ask for and that we would then flee from country to country, seeking a place where we can live in "relative" peace. That is how we arrived in North America.
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ohio jones
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby ohio jones » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:21 pm

Here's an article from CT that examines groups that appear to be similar to the one mentioned in the OP:
The 'Prophets' and 'Apostles' Leading the Quiet Revolution in American Religion
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francis
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby francis » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:18 am

http://fresh-hope.com/thread/2238/insid ... hel-church here's a link with the entire article text included. A noteworthy quote:
'More recently, Beni Johnson (Bill’s wife) and other Bethel leaders have been said to practice “grave sucking” or “grave soaking,” purportedly a means of absorbing the spiritual anointing of deceased Christians by lying atop their graves. Accusations of mixing New Age practices with Christianity are also common. Accusations in general are common.'
Last edited by francis on Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Valerie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:46 am

ohio jones wrote:Here's an article from CT that examines groups that appear to be similar to the one mentioned in the OP:
The 'Prophets' and 'Apostles' Leading the Quiet Revolution in American Religion


They seem to be all connected. Many people I know are really encouraging Bethel Church as this article brings out- I hear nothing but good things from people I know personally and they get very defensive over any questioning of it- it's very odd to me, this whole movement-
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Valerie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:56 am

francis wrote:http://fresh-hope.com/thread/2238/inside-popular-controversial-bethel-church here's a link with the entire article text included. A noteworthy quote:
'More recently, Beni Johnson (Bill’s wife) and other Bethel leaders have been said to practice “grave sucking” or “grave soaking,” purportedly a means of absorbing the spiritual anointing of deceased Christians by lying atop their graves. Accusations of mixing New Age practices with Christianity are also common. Accusations in general are common.'

Thanks for sharing the article- I have watched youtubes of the 'fire tunnel' at Bethel and Bill Johnson speaking of the gold dust and feathers falling- (angel feathers supposedly) and wonder why he thinks that God would do this-
people are so hungry for what- signs and wonders? Spirituality that has the supernatural (of course God has always done the supernatural) - the article brings out claims of healings, many healings- well I wouldn't rule out that God can and does heal-

That grave sucking thing-where on earth did that come from? Is that New Age?

I am mindful that it is believed that the relics of saints that had a particular amount of grace, the grace remained on the relics- could it be that they get this from the 'true' story of 2 Kings 13:21, that it gave them the idea? I never heard of grave sucking before- weird!!:

And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
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Sudsy
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Sudsy » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:09 pm

I was just saying to my wife the other day that I have never heard of a miracle in my life time that was so obvious that it would even be a big news issue such as those that happened in Jesus day. The kind where someone was blind from birth, known that way by many and received immediate full sight. Or deaf from birth, known by many and were able to hear clearly. Or, as in my case, was born missing a left arm from just below the elbow down and immediately received a full arm fitting to my age and size to match the other arm. Many people know me as over the years I have been recognized for various sports achievements and I would think if this receiving a new arm through a miracle would occur, it would certainly hit the local newspaper and perhaps CNN and other curious news sources. I'm not questioning other reported miracles but seems to me many leave some room for other possible explanations to not 'wow' the world.

I am curious if anyone on this forum personally has seen a miracle of the sort I mentioned above happening. And have you ever wondered why God would not do such miracles that could not be refuted to point more people to Jesus ?

Perhaps this is a separate thread but it brought this up again in my thinking when groups talk about miracles and I have never seen the kind as those I mentioned above.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Postby Judas Maccabeus » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:58 pm

Valerie wrote:
francis wrote:http://fresh-hope.com/thread/2238/inside-popular-controversial-bethel-church here's a link with the entire article text included. A noteworthy quote:
'More recently, Beni Johnson (Bill’s wife) and other Bethel leaders have been said to practice “grave sucking” or “grave soaking,” purportedly a means of absorbing the spiritual anointing of deceased Christians by lying atop their graves. Accusations of mixing New Age practices with Christianity are also common. Accusations in general are common.'

Thanks for sharing the article- I have watched youtubes of the 'fire tunnel' at Bethel and Bill Johnson speaking of the gold dust and feathers falling- (angel feathers supposedly) and wonder why he thinks that God would do this-
people are so hungry for what- signs and wonders? Spirituality that has the supernatural (of course God has always done the supernatural) - the article brings out claims of healings, many healings- well I wouldn't rule out that God can and does heal-

That grave sucking thing-where on earth did that come from? Is that New Age?

I am mindful that it is believed that the relics of saints that had a particular amount of grace, the grace remained on the relics- could it be that they get this from the 'true' story of 2 Kings 13:21, that it gave them the idea? I never heard of grave sucking before- weird!!:

And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

No, this stuff is beyond weird. It is not new, dates back to the "signs and wonders" and "Power encounter" stuff that C.Peter Wagner and some of the other Fuller Seminary people of the early 90s were teaching. It takes the focus off of Christlikness and moves it to hyper emotionalism and "spiritual power." I am not sure if there is any of God in it.

2 of my longtime friend are in a "Bethel Related" church. It is the logical next step to the "Toronto Blessing."

J.M.
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