US Thanksgiving

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Bootstrap
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Bootstrap »

ken_sylvania wrote:Exactly! Boot says "Robert, I don't think you should have posted that." and Robert responds "Boot, don't tell me not to post whatever I want." In saying this, Robert is doing the very exact thing he is telling Boot to stop doing, he's telling Boot what not to post.
And I think the video adds another step to this.

Prager says "People should stop mourning for the Indians when they think about Thanksgiving". The message seems to be that those people who see any reason to mourn for the Indians who were wiped out or enslaved as part of this story should shut up. That's what I was responding to. That's only part of the story, of course, and another part of the story is Christians seeking a place to live out their faith. That's a complicated and interesting story, I have read only excerpts of what William Bradford wrote.

Robert, I'm sorry that my response sounded like I was telling you to shut up. How could I have said this better?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by JimFoxvog »

There have been days of Thanksgiving in many countries throughout history. It is good to give thanks to God, so I support a day of Thanksgiving. The Pilgrim Thanksgiving story, which should include the sins of kidnapping and slaving Boot mentioned, is mixed, but we are to give thanks in all things.

I think a day of mourning and repentance would be better observed on Columbus Day. Columbus was in charge of the murder of many natives and the taking of more in slavery, all done in the "name of the Holy Trinity". This better represents the sin the US was conceived in.
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Valerie
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:Hats Off, you're right - I do tend to approach science and history the same way I approach the Bible. I don't think Thanksgiving has much to do with accurate history, and I think we should feel free to eat turkey and thank God without worrying about it.

The video says pretty clearly that people should stop connecting Thanksgiving with any sense of mourning, and that's one of the main themes.

I don't think that our celebration of Thanksgiving really has much to do with accurate history, but if we want to talk the history, there are many different stories to tell, and some of them do involve mourning. The Indian village was empty because a plague had wiped out the entire village about five years before the Pilgrims came, after contact with Captain Hunt's expedition, which captured 27 Indians and sold them as slaves in Spain. That was before the Pilgrims came, so it was not their fault, but it's clearly an important part of the story.

Squanto was kidnapped once and taken to England, which is why he spoke English, then managed to return, and was kidnapped a second time and sold as a slave to Spain. When Squanto returned, his people had been wiped out by plague. About 80% of the population of New England died as a result of plagues in the 100 years after contact with Europeans.

As Prager tells it, this is a time to celebrate a conveniently empty village provided for the white people and an Indian who conveniently happens to speak English and can teach the new settlers how to survive. He encourages us to be a little outraged that anyone would see a reason for mourning here.

The original history involves many different stories and lessons, including God's provision for the Pilgrims through Squanto.
The video brings out what they were teaching children in Seattle- this is a 'mission' to affect young minds & turn them away from Christianity, only a small piece of a larger puzzle. After my son attended university- I was aware of this revisionist history and maybe there is a need to tell the whole story, but not with a particular 'bias' against Christians- I guess I keep in mind when I was young, my mom quoted the leader of communist Russia who said they would get to us through our education system, without the use of guns- and with what my friend has been sharing being taught in her son's 'Christian' college, it seems the influence against true Christianity even infiltrates there-

One of our friends posts this every Thanksgiving- probably to counteract the current trend:

https://spectator.org/36504_genocidal-thanksgiving/
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Bootstrap
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:As Prager tells it, this is a time to celebrate a conveniently empty village provided for the white people and an Indian who conveniently happens to speak English and can teach the new settlers how to survive. He encourages us to be a little outraged that anyone would see a reason for mourning here.

The original history involves many different stories and lessons, including God's provision for the Pilgrims through Squanto.
The video brings out what they were teaching children in Seattle- this is a 'mission' to affect young minds & turn them away from Christianity, only a small piece of a larger puzzle.
Actually, it doesn't. I really can't tell what they were teaching children in Seattle based on the video. I can only tell that Prager wants me to be outraged. Whatever he was responding to, it seems no longer to be online.

When I looked for what they teach in Washington schools, this was the document I found:

http://www.ewebtribe.com/Thanksgiving/tchthnk.txt

It seems to seek a balance between telling accurate history and telling a positive story of friendship. The introduction points out a bunch of things to teachers that are not in the lesson plan for children, some of them might be interesting for Christians to discuss when thinking about the holiday. Before giving the lesson plan for children, it explains how it reconciles truthfulness with leaving out some of the facts:
As for Thanksgiving week at Plymouth Plantation in 1621, the friendship was guarded and not always sincere, and the peace was very soon abused. But for three days in New England's history, peace and friendship were there.

So here is a story for your children. It is as kind and gentle a balance of historic truth and positive inspiration as its writers and this editor can make it out to be. I hope it will adequately serve its purpose both for you and your students, and I also hope this work will encourage you to look both deeper and farther, for Thanksgiving is Thanksgiving all around the world.
The lesson plan centers around a story called "THE PLYMOUTH THANKSGIVING STORY". What do you think of their lesson plan and their telling of the story?
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Valerie
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:As Prager tells it, this is a time to celebrate a conveniently empty village provided for the white people and an Indian who conveniently happens to speak English and can teach the new settlers how to survive. He encourages us to be a little outraged that anyone would see a reason for mourning here.

The original history involves many different stories and lessons, including God's provision for the Pilgrims through Squanto.
The video brings out what they were teaching children in Seattle- this is a 'mission' to affect young minds & turn them away from Christianity, only a small piece of a larger puzzle.
Actually, it doesn't. I really can't tell what they were teaching children in Seattle based on the video. I can only tell that Prager wants me to be outraged. Whatever he was responding to, it seems no longer to be online.
I only have time to address this for now-listen to the first minute again-
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Hats Off
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Hats Off »

Couldn't we somehow leave the past in the past and be thankful today for the things of today? Must everyone today repent of the things that were done by our ancestors centuries ago? If we need to mourn, perhaps we should mourn for all those people today who can't truly be thankful because they don't know anyone to be thankful to? We are thankful to God the Creator for all things; many today don't know God.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by ken_sylvania »

Bootstrap wrote: When I looked for what they teach in Washington schools, this was the document I found:

http://www.ewebtribe.com/Thanksgiving/tchthnk.txt

It seems to seek a balance between telling accurate history and telling a positive story of friendship. The introduction points out a bunch of things to teachers that are not in the lesson plan for children, some of them might be interesting for Christians to discuss when thinking about the holiday. Before giving the lesson plan for children, it explains how it reconciles truthfulness with leaving out some of the facts:
As for Thanksgiving week at Plymouth Plantation in 1621, the friendship was guarded and not always sincere, and the peace was very soon abused. But for three days in New England's history, peace and friendship were there.

So here is a story for your children. It is as kind and gentle a balance of historic truth and positive inspiration as its writers and this editor can make it out to be. I hope it will adequately serve its purpose both for you and your students, and I also hope this work will encourage you to look both deeper and farther, for Thanksgiving is Thanksgiving all around the world.
The lesson plan centers around a story called "THE PLYMOUTH THANKSGIVING STORY". What do you think of their lesson plan and their telling of the story?
I think Larsen is quite careless about accuracy.

In his introduction, Larsen seems to deliberately conflate the Pilgrims and Puritans as though somehow the Pilgrims were responsible for what the Puritan colonies did. He implies that the words of a Puritan minister accurately portray the attitude of the (Separatist) Pilgrims.

Larsen suggests that the Pilgrims (and Puritans) intent was to overthrow the English government and set up self-rule, as though self-rule and submission to the English Crown were mutually exclusive.
In fact, the Pilgrims had intended to settle in an area ruled by England, but where they would have been allowed a large degree of autonomy (Virginia). I think that Edward Winslow's 1621 letter makes it clear that the Pilgrims considered themselves loyal subjects of England.

Larsen says that "In 1643 the Puritan/Pilgrims declared themselves an independent confederacy, 143 years before the American Revolution." He seems to be suggesting that the 1643 confederacy was some kind of a rebellion against England. In fact, the 1643 New England Confederation was simply a mutual offense/defense pact, somewhat similar to NATO, for instance.

Larsen goes on to say that
It should also be noted that the INDIANS, possibly out of a sense of charity toward their hosts, ended up bringing the majority of the food for the feast.
The footnote for this statement points to Edward Winslow's letter dated December 1621. In his letter, the only food that Winslow mentions the Indians had brought was the five deer. He states that the Pilgrims had plenty of corn, and mentions that they had just spent a day hunting and killed enough fowl to feed the company for nearly a week. I can't find any contemporaneous accounts that lend any support to Larsen's idea that the Indians had supplied most of the food, and his sources don't actually support his statement.

So, I really do think there is an agenda behind this lesson plan, and it's not about the pursuit of truth.
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temporal1
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by temporal1 »

i have not watched the video, i plan to. looking forward to it.
in my life, Thanksgiving has been a lovely day/long weekend, for reasons Kingdom Builder shared.
a day of family+friends, giving and sharing with others, serving others - many provide special meals for others at this time. without the commercialization and pressures that correlate with (secular) Christmas.

thankfully, it IS possible to ignore the commercialization of Christmas, many do.
possibly those who are less apt to suffer dreaded winter depression, hopelessness, etc.

humans are at their very best in giving thanks after hardship, loss, trauma. “on our knees.”
so, in my mind, all the “awful things” folks today want to throw out to detract from giving thanks, are actually important parts of the whole. i do not accept that folks in those early days conveniently accepted hardship, not their own, or others.

gratitude, or thanks, is deepest, and most sincere, when hurt has been endured.

contemporary life loathes discomfort, we have access to so many ways to avoid it or control it, but, pain is actually an important part of human development. when we “save” our children from all potential pain, and perceived potential pain, we do them a terrible misservice.
(i struggle with this, i want to protect! i want “no pain” for others.) i realize that’s not up to me, for good reason. :)

i’m not sure if i’ve chosen adequate words here. i tried. :)
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Once Again
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Once Again »

Many American Indians celebrate Thanksgiving and don't see it as a time of mourning. The first Thanksgiving was a fine example of how people of different ethnic groups and cultures can come together in peace. In my mind, it is a positive thing-both the history of the holiday and a special time with family with an emphasis on thanking God for His blessings.
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Robert
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Re: US Thanksgiving

Post by Robert »

Squanto was not bitter or angry towards the settlers. He did not blame them for his village's plight or his own. He stayed with them and taught them and broke bread with them. I see no reason to conflate previous bad experiences with the positive one he had with the settlers. He seemed to be able to move forward. I think we should also. Why should we carry more grief then he did? Maybe we should be more like Squanto, kind, generous, willing to help others. He was a great example of following Jesus.

Thanksgiving has at least 3 other times that helped shape what we understand as the US Thanksgiving. The first was Plymouth Rock, but it is not the only thing that shapes it.

The story of Plymouth Rock is an example of when God finds a way to take disaster, and brokenness, and turn it to good. This is what I see in the video and find to be a good thing for me to focus on to be Thankful.
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