Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

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Valerie
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Valerie » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:51 am

Bootstrap wrote:The question is really whether Christianity is about the things we find in the New Testament or the things political factions want to make it about. We can't have it both ways.


I think it's both- and I think they go hand in hand according to Romans 13 (and other passages)

I believe Trump is sincere at recognizing some serious spiraling downward in our nation- otherwise I really don't think he would care didly squat about being president at 70 years old- he stated if he hadn't won, what would he be doing? He said- "Probably enjoying my life". If Christian values is something that he is even considering, and possibly opening his own eyes to, in this late time in his life, then instead of criticizing him possibly rejoice that God may be getting his attention before he passes this life, into the next.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:53 am

temporal1 wrote: i intentionally put this topic in "Other," not "Politics," because my interest is in the human and family aspects, not the political.


I wonder if we could discuss those things, then. I bet we would find a lot more agreement there.

How do we relate to family members or friends who make choices we cannot understand or agree with? How do they relate to us? Are we beginning to be "strangers in a strange land" in ways we haven't been? What does that mean for the way we live? I suspect the plain Mennos may have things to teach us here, they have been "stranger" for longer than many of us.

I don't think we are going to be able to force our way by legal means. I don't think the political parties are going to institute the Kingdom of God. I don't think embracing Donald Trump is going to help us. But these are the kinds of solutions people keep proposing. I think that's off the mark.
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Valerie
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Valerie » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:56 am

Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote: i intentionally put this topic in "Other," not "Politics," because my interest is in the human and family aspects, not the political.


I wonder if we could discuss those things, then. I bet we would find a lot more agreement there.

How do we relate to family members or friends who make choices we cannot understand or agree with? How do they relate to us? Are we beginning to be "strangers in a strange land" in ways we haven't been? What does that mean for the way we live?

I don't think we are going to be able to force our way by legal means. I don't think the political parties are going to institute the Kingdom of God. I don't think embracing Donald Trump is going to help us. But these are the kinds of solutions people keep proposing. I think that's off the mark.


Yes but with him in office, and his feelings that Christians have been persecuted in cases like this, there is more support from the government that a family like this will be able to operate their businesses without compromising their spiritual convictions, or perhaps like some, have had to give up their businesses altogether, or pay huge legal fees in the hopes of keeping their business and not have to do things against their convictions. They have more hope under this administration, than the last for sure.
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temporal1
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby temporal1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:00 am

(a few have posted while i was writing .. this is not a response to those!)
Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:(Trump did not start it, he may be a response to it, but he is not responsible for starting it.)
if Trump's name is a "trigger" for you, please bypass this topic, rather than hijack it for political statements. please avoid political arguments and accusations. :)


Sorry, but Trump and LifeSiteNews are extremely political, and that's hard to ignore.

I agree with you that gay marriage is wrong, and I would not allow one on my property either. But politicians are hijacking our Christian concerns for their own purposes. If your posts contain quotes urging us to have political allegiances, I will point that out. To ignore that is to let political factions hijack our faith.

The question is really whether Christianity is about the things we find in the New Testament or the things political factions want to make it about. We can't have it both ways.
my hope is to address these situations from a non-political view, knowing full-well hijacking for politics is today's reality.

forum readers are able to discern, so, efforts to emphasize the obvious+openly stated are not necessary, and, distracting. it does take some focus to separate real life from politics, but, with some maturity, it can be done. (the quote you picked out was not hidden from view; neither did i edit it out.)

if you want to discuss the politics of any of these situations, please begin afresh under "Politics." :)
if Trump's name cannot appear without causing you distress, i will rethink my posts, by either not posting, or editing-out words that might cause you to stumble. this may be necessary. if so, ok.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:05 am

Valerie wrote:Yes but with him in office, and his feelings that Christians have been persecuted in cases like this, there is more support from the government that a family like this will be able to operate their businesses without compromising their spiritual convictions, or perhaps like some, have had to give up their businesses altogether, or pay huge legal fees in the hopes of keeping their business and not have to do things against their convictions. They have more hope under this administration, than the last for sure.


I would like to see more protection for Christian businesses, including wedding photographers and businesses like the one in the OP. I can certainly see why those who vote would weigh these kinds of issues highly. I don't know if we will get that or not, we'll see.

But I don't think Christians should be constantly aggrieved, angry, looking for the latest scandal, having opinions on every controversy without knowing the facts. I don't think we should be looking for heroes and villains in the political world. I do think we should watch and pray and consider carefully how we live out our lives in this strange world, entrusting our steps to God.

Politicized Christian reliably points us in the wrong directions.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:11 am

temporal1 wrote:(a few have posted while i was writing .. this is not a response to those!)
Bootstrap wrote:I agree with you that gay marriage is wrong, and I would not allow one on my property either. But politicians are hijacking our Christian concerns for their own purposes. If your posts contain quotes urging us to have political allegiances, I will point that out. To ignore that is to let political factions hijack our faith.

The question is really whether Christianity is about the things we find in the New Testament or the things political factions want to make it about. We can't have it both ways.


my hope is to address these situations from a non-political view, knowing full-well hijacking for politics is today's reality.


Good, I would really like to see us stand agains that hijacking and focus on the non-political end of things - especially on our response as people of faith.

temporal1 wrote:if you want to discuss the politics of any of these situations, please begin afresh under "Politics." :)


I do not want to discuss the politics of these situations. Looking at everything through a political lens is a big part of the problem. And I can easily fall into that trap, I suspect I am not the only one.

temporal1 wrote:if Trump's name cannot appear without causing you distress, i will rethink my posts, by either not posting, or editing-out words that might cause you to stumble. this may be necessary. if so, ok.


When I look at mainstream media - right or left - the one thing they agree on is that the entire world revolves around Trump, who must dominate our thoughts day and night. We can choose to be on one side or the other side, but they tell us Trump is the main issue and we need to be riled up when people disagree with whichever side we have chosen. So what would it look like to act like everything revolves around Jesus, who must dominate our thoughts day and night, and how we respond to these things in the world around us as strangers in a strange land?
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Josh
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Josh » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:13 am

Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote: i intentionally put this topic in "Other," not "Politics," because my interest is in the human and family aspects, not the political.


I wonder if we could discuss those things, then. I bet we would find a lot more agreement there.

How do we relate to family members or friends who make choices we cannot understand or agree with? How do they relate to us? Are we beginning to be "strangers in a strange land" in ways we haven't been? What does that mean for the way we live? I suspect the plain Mennos may have things to teach us here, they have been "stranger" for longer than many of us.

I don't think we are going to be able to force our way by legal means. I don't think the political parties are going to institute the Kingdom of God. I don't think embracing Donald Trump is going to help us. But these are the kinds of solutions people keep proposing. I think that's off the mark.


This is a good question, Bootstrap. I can't really talk about much of anything at all with some progressive Mennonite people because the simple reality is that everything is political. The family is political. What you do with regards to sexuality and marriage is political.

Even our hermeneutics and how we approach the Bible is political; the pastor at Raleigh Mennonite Church and I can't really communicate effectively about applying the Bible to our lives because our hermeneutics are so different. I can explain how I am simply trying to approach scripture and obey scripture when I say that we, as conservative Anabaptists, cannot have our schoolteachers teaching curriculum in the classroom that affirms homosexual activity as acceptable and not a sin. Her response is:

I'll be honest, Joshua, saying "we have different hermeneutics" and "people are trying to exterminate me" feels like a way to get out of the difficult work of what may actually be acknowledging that your way of reading Scripture is closed off to other interpretations. It seems protectionist, as Anabaptists have often been, claiming we're right because we have a history of persecution. I wish you all the best, and encourage you not to be frightened when God shows up in places and people you may not expect. God is immensely surprising. I hope that someday you encounter that surprise with joy. All the best to you this day.


There's no way to de-politicise this. It is true that "my way of reading scripture is closed off to other interpretations", and that's an inherently political act.
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temporal1
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby temporal1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:13 am

Valerie wrote: Yes but with him in office, and his feelings that Christians have been persecuted in cases like this, there is more support from the government that a family like this will be able to operate their businesses without compromising their spiritual convictions, or perhaps like some, have had to give up their businesses altogether, or pay huge legal fees in the hopes of keeping their business and not have to do things against their convictions. They have more hope under this administration, than the last for sure.
yes, hijacking personal, family, and spiritual matters for biased politics has become a way of life, Christians were NOT expecting it, so, now are trying to figure out how to respond. we are not "ahead of the curve," and, the answers are not settled. probably the response will have to be different, from different Christians - as, thankfully, we are not one organized political group!
in my view (fwiw) the UNorganized majority is of most importance.

organized minority activists are noisy+effective in human law, but, that doesn't mean they're "right."
Jesus never suggested organizing political factions was His Way. :)

so, in these matters, what is His Way?
we know much is out-of-kilter, we don't know very well how best to respond.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:26 am

Josh wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I don't think we are going to be able to force our way by legal means. I don't think the political parties are going to institute the Kingdom of God. I don't think embracing Donald Trump is going to help us. But these are the kinds of solutions people keep proposing. I think that's off the mark.


This is a good question, Bootstrap. I can't really talk about much of anything at all with some progressive Mennonite people because the simple reality is that everything is political. The family is political. What you do with regards to sexuality and marriage is political.


That's because law does get involved. I can't have five wives, I can't commit female circumcision on my daughters, those are decisions I agree with. But lately, there are many legal decisions that allow things that my faith does not. That makes me squirm. Worse, there are people who consider me a bigot because I disagree with them. That really makes me squirm. And there are people who are being put out of business because they make righteous choices. That makes me angry. But I still don't think embracing political factions is the right solution, and I really don't think that Christians and Deplorables are the same thing.

Josh wrote:Even our hermeneutics and how we approach the Bible is political; the pastor at Raleigh Mennonite Church and I can't really communicate effectively about applying the Bible to our lives because our hermeneutics are so different. I can explain how I am simply trying to approach scripture and obey scripture when I say that we, as conservative Anabaptists, cannot have our schoolteachers teaching curriculum in the classroom that affirms homosexual activity as acceptable and not a sin. Her response is:

I'll be honest, Joshua, saying "we have different hermeneutics" and "people are trying to exterminate me" feels like a way to get out of the difficult work of what may actually be acknowledging that your way of reading Scripture is closed off to other interpretations. It seems protectionist, as Anabaptists have often been, claiming we're right because we have a history of persecution. I wish you all the best, and encourage you not to be frightened when God shows up in places and people you may not expect. God is immensely surprising. I hope that someday you encounter that surprise with joy. All the best to you this day.


There's no way to de-politicise this. It is true that "my way of reading scripture is closed off to other interpretations", and that's an inherently political act.


I'll be honest, Joshua, I don't know any honest reading of the Bible that supports gay marriage. I do think we should be open to other interpretations, but not to all other interpretations whether or not they have merit.

Sometimes I do think that "we have different hermeneutics" can be used as a way of shielding ourselves from Scripture, but no sound hermeneutic is going to embrace gay marriage. You can't bend the Greek that far and the cultural arguments are often made up out of whole cloth. I don't think people are going to exterminate us, but they are going to have a harder time understanding us. And we are going to have to figure out how to respond in love, faithfulness, and a deep trust in God.

Politicized sources are calling us to a very different kind of response.
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temporal1
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Re: Selling Blueberries? .. or, maybe not.

Postby temporal1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:31 am

(i sense) many people have chosen to ignore or "auto-off," mainstream media (both "news+entertainment.") for me, this is a first step in attempting to view life through a non-political lens. i stopped following .. 2 years ago? .. when it finally dawned on me it was repetitious garbage. recently, i think of it like riding a stationary bicycle: all that effort, getting nowhere.

"watching the news" was something my folks did. and, i grew into.
one half hour in the evening - with shared time for weather, sports, advertising!
a far cry from 24/7 repetitious "raging." really, this is not human advancement.

so little is news.
speculation, personal opinion, chatter, are not news.
in my view, neither are they entertaining. so, fail, fail.

anyway.
back to blueberries and families. :)
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formerly Temporal1

“The past is never dead. It's not even past.”
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