Campground Ramblings

[lesterb]

I think I understand where you're coming from now. In Catholic World we see that certain Jewish rules and traditions were nullified by Christ's words in the Gospels with the most detailed account being Luke 5:36-39. In Matthew 15 Jesus also said:


Also we view Chapters 10 & 11 in Acts as a further example of God "removing former barriers" about prohibited people and customs.

At least that's how we Catholics view it. YMMV.

I am familiar with that view, and it is not one unique to Catholics, I can assure you. But have you considered the other perspective of honoring our Savior in all things. " All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient." Paul tells us. No barbs intended, though it was/is a pointed question. I guess for me it always seems to be a contradiction of terms, especially when we consider the symbolism involved.

I always wondered how ham became such a traditional Easter Feast meal- as opposed to Lamb. I wonder if not only 'cost' but an emphasis about Jesus fulfilling the Law and as Max pointed out in Scripture, how under the New Covenant all meat was 'clean'- maybe it was to emphasize Old Covenant replaced by New Covenant- I can't think of any other reason ham became so traditional.

Because it tastes so good, maybe?

[MaxPC]

I am familiar with that view, and it is not one unique to Catholics, I can assure you. But have you considered the other perspective of honoring our Savior in all things. " All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient." Paul tells us. No barbs intended, though it was/is a pointed question. I guess for me it always seems to be a contradiction of terms, especially when we consider the symbolism involved.

You make some interesting points, George. I'm partial to Jesus' instructions about new wine too: the New Covenant vs the Old Covenant; and the all too painful question of circumcision raised in Acts 15 (remember that before the New Covenant the Gentiles were required by Jewish law to be circumcised upon conversion). Ouch.

That said, I like the Catholic idea of fasting, going meatless on designated days, and circumcision of the heart in service to and for love of Jesus. YMMV

Because it tastes so good, maybe?

And it's cheap! Why am I craving a ham sandwich now? I think I'll go to bed

[gcdonner]

I think I understand where you're coming from now. In Catholic World we see that certain Jewish rules and traditions were nullified by Christ's words in the Gospels with the most detailed account being Luke 5:36-39. In Matthew 15 Jesus also said:


Also we view Chapters 10 & 11 in Acts as a further example of God "removing former barriers" about prohibited people and customs.

At least that's how we Catholics view it. YMMV.

I am familiar with that view, and it is not one unique to Catholics, I can assure you. But have you considered the other perspective of honoring our Savior in all things. " All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient." Paul tells us. No barbs intended, though it was/is a pointed question. I guess for me it always seems to be a contradiction of terms, especially when we consider the symbolism involved.

I always wondered how ham became such a traditional Easter Feast meal- as opposed to Lamb. I wonder if not only 'cost' but an emphasis about Jesus fulfilling the Law and as Max pointed out in Scripture, how under the New Covenant all meat was 'clean'- maybe it was to emphasize Old Covenant replaced by New Covenant- I can't think of any other reason ham became so traditional.

I hate to say it, but the early church after the first century was very anti Semitic, and it wouldn't in the least surprise me to find that it was done just to irritate the Jews of their time. I am sure the first century Christians wouldn't have done it, since even the majority of the Gentile converts were people who were already fellowshipping with the Jews in their synagogues before Paul came to them, like in Ephesus.
I am not against eating ham, but from my perspective it at least would seem respectful of the original lump that we all came from to abstain on this one occasion at least... That's just my sense of it all. Paul warned us not to boast against the natural branches...

[Valerie]

I am familiar with that view, and it is not one unique to Catholics, I can assure you. But have you considered the other perspective of honoring our Savior in all things. " All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient." Paul tells us. No barbs intended, though it was/is a pointed question. I guess for me it always seems to be a contradiction of terms, especially when we consider the symbolism involved.

I always wondered how ham became such a traditional Easter Feast meal- as opposed to Lamb. I wonder if not only 'cost' but an emphasis about Jesus fulfilling the Law and as Max pointed out in Scripture, how under the New Covenant all meat was 'clean'- maybe it was to emphasize Old Covenant replaced by New Covenant- I can't think of any other reason ham became so traditional.

I hate to say it, but the early church after the first century was very anti Semitic, and it wouldn't in the least surprise me to find that it was done just to irritate the Jews of their time. I am sure the first century Christians wouldn't have done it, since even the majority of the Gentile converts were people who were already fellowshipping with the Jews in their synagogues before Paul came to them, like in Ephesus.
I am not against eating ham, but from my perspective it at least would seem respectful of the original lump that we all came from to abstain on this one occasion at least... That's just my sense of it all. Paul warned us not to boast against the natural branches...

Many people accuse Apostle Paul of being anti Semitic too, for his strong words against the Judaizers- I don't think that the early Church was anti Semitic at all, I think they had the right perspective on the differences and probably people don't understand all this and judge inaccurately- not understanding how the Jews were anti-Christian and how these had to be addressed- lest they lose Jewish converts to the faith back to Judaism, or perhaps being misinterpreted when explaining to Gentiles the whole scenario when bringing the Gospel to them-
I also don't think eating ham is boasting against the branches, but perhaps an emphasis on the New Covenant- there are many ways one could accuse the liberty in Christ apart from Mosaic law as boasting against the branches.
It is interesting though that some of these 'Messianic Jewish Churches' TODAY preach against eating pork but this is again another sect that is trying to figure things out on their own-
Lamb is way more expensive even if symbolic- when people don't have a herd to borrow from then it can be expensive- it is not wrong to eat ham and may be a celebration of New Covenant-
Plus as Lester said it tastes good (although our Celtic heritage draws us to lamb, and we do too, appreciate the symbolism even if it was not a NT practice to do this)

[MaxPC]

I hate to say it, but the early church after the first century was very anti Semitic, and it wouldn't in the least surprise me to find that it was done just to irritate the Jews of their time. I am sure the first century Christians wouldn't have done it, since even the majority of the Gentile converts were people who were already fellowshipping with the Jews in their synagogues before Paul came to them, like in Ephesus.
I am not against eating ham, but from my perspective it at least would seem respectful of the original lump that we all came from to abstain on this one occasion at least... That's just my sense of it all. Paul warned us not to boast against the natural branches...

I respect your perspective and can even agree with the concept. Paul did teach it's not unlawful to eat meat from the pagan temples but he did imply it creates an "appearance" of wrong-doing. It's not unlike Catholic abstention from meat on certain days (Good Friday tomorrow is one of those days). Re "boasting against the branches", I've always understood that to mean that instead of persecuting the Jews, they should be treated with respect and taught the Gospel.

Technically, according to Catholic Canon Law, I can go ahead and eat meat tomorrow because of my age. I could, but I don't want to. Health-wise I can abstain from meat with no ill effects. Fasting on the other hand has been modified for me. Our definition of fasting is one full meal and two smaller meals that together do not equal a full meal.

I know our teachings might sound a bit legalistic but I've found them to be reminders of where my life should be focused: on Jesus. Taking time from my normal routine to observe special reminders of God helps me.

[Josh]

I’m gonna have to agree with Catholic jurisprudence and tradition on this one.

If I were in Israel and observing Passover with other Christian believers, I probably wouldn’t be partaking of ham. On the flip side, they wouldn’t be offended if they knew I was going to dine on bacon this morning at Panera’s.

[gcdonner]

I always wondered how ham became such a traditional Easter Feast meal- as opposed to Lamb. I wonder if not only 'cost' but an emphasis about Jesus fulfilling the Law and as Max pointed out in Scripture, how under the New Covenant all meat was 'clean'- maybe it was to emphasize Old Covenant replaced by New Covenant- I can't think of any other reason ham became so traditional.

I hate to say it, but the early church after the first century was very anti Semitic, and it wouldn't in the least surprise me to find that it was done just to irritate the Jews of their time. I am sure the first century Christians wouldn't have done it, since even the majority of the Gentile converts were people who were already fellowshipping with the Jews in their synagogues before Paul came to them, like in Ephesus.
I am not against eating ham, but from my perspective it at least would seem respectful of the original lump that we all came from to abstain on this one occasion at least... That's just my sense of it all. Paul warned us not to boast against the natural branches...

Many people accuse Apostle Paul of being anti Semitic too, for his strong words against the Judaizers- I don't think that the early Church was anti Semitic at all

, I think they had the right perspective on the differences and probably people don't understand all this and judge inaccurately- not understanding how the Jews were anti-Christian and how these had to be addressed- lest they lose Jewish converts to the faith back to Judaism, or perhaps being misinterpreted when explaining to Gentiles the whole scenario when bringing the Gospel to them-
I also don't think eating ham is boasting against the branches, but perhaps an emphasis on the New Covenant- there are many ways one could accuse the liberty in Christ apart from Mosaic law as boasting against the branches.
It is interesting though that some of these 'Messianic Jewish Churches' TODAY preach against eating pork but this is again another sect that is trying to figure things out on their own-
Lamb is way more expensive even if symbolic- when people don't have a herd to borrow from then it can be expensive- it is not wrong to eat ham and may be a celebration of New Covenant-
Plus as Lester said it tastes good (although our Celtic heritage draws us to lamb, and we do too, appreciate the symbolism even if it was not a NT practice to do this)

When I said early church in this context I was referring to the 2nd century church of the Ante Nicene Fathers, et al. It is easy to see the anti-Semitism in their writings. The 2nd century Jewish Christians were even separated from the Gentile Christians. We recall the Jewish Christians as continuing to observe the Feast Days, circumcision & Sabbath after the Gentiles had rejected them, further separating the two groups. There is obvious antagonism in the Ante Nicene Fathers towards the Jews, imo.

[gcdonner]

Taking time from my normal routine to observe special reminders of God helps me.

AMEN!

[silentreader]

Interesting?

http://amightywind.com/passover/lambvsham.htm

[MaxPC]

Interesting?

http://amightywind.com/passover/lambvsham.htm

SR this is interesting. I've never heard of this group. Who are they?

At some point in human history a lot of that history will repeat and other bits are coincidence. There are only so many consumables available to humans on our planet.

One of the precepts of Catholic missionary work is to make use of the materials at hand, even in the celebration of the Eucharist. Our priests have been known to find acceptable substitutes when wine and wheat were absent and our Instructions of the Roman Missal has spelled out acceptable alternative elements. It's the celebration and prayers of the Sacrament itself that takes priority in Catholic World. YMMV.