Good things about patriarchies

[Joy]

i thought of this thread after posting:

I think the reason the main Mormon group is so large in comparison with the others is because
they run their church like an efficient corporation.
One Mormon told me, "How can you argue against us being the true church whenever we are so successful?"

Also they are successful, because they know just when to drop traditional beliefs and practices in favor of more modern ones.
When public opinion forced them to drop polygamy, they got a revelation to do so. When public opinion forced them to drop policies against blacks, they did so. In contrast the traditionalists keep on practicing polygamy because they believe that nobody is allowed to change the scriptures.
The liberals watered down their theology so much that they don't require members to believe the Book of Mormon is inspired.
If you can't trust your texts, you are going to lose anything that makes you stand out as something different.

A third reason they are so succesful is because they have a top notch missionary training program and a robust apologetics department.

Good points, Ernie. i would add a couple:
1) They value traditional families and children;
2) They are able to retain their children in their faith, in spite of gov school experience. (Something i’ve observed in my life that foreign students with non-Christian religions achieve.)

Our daughter was in school with girls from large, robust Mormon families, one of her friends was #13, they added 2 boys before their sweet mother shared with me that she thought #15 was the last. “He was harder to carry to term than the others.” i admired her and their family. Good memories.

No self-loathing, ZPG, and confusing dogs+cats as babies for them! They are in politics.

“Mormon families are America's largest, new study finds”
https://www.deseret.com/2015/5/12/20564 ... tudy-finds

(i’m not sure they included the Amish in their studies.) ^^

Ernie:
Everything you mentioned has great appeal to western/U.S. secular tastes, the love of wealthy corporations and hollywood.
Interesting how they embrace those things AND continue to value traditional family units, values, children.

Other numbers

The 2014 survey interviewed more than 650 people who identified themselves as Mormon or LDS. Again, the plus or minus for LDS data was 4.9 percentage points.

Additional findings included:

• Mormons are among the youngest Christians in America, with a median age among adults of 43, up from 41 in 2007. Only Orthodox Christians are younger, at 40.

• American Mormons are 86 percent white, but racial and ethnic diversity in the church ticked up to 15 percent from 14 percent in 2007.

• Mormons are among the most highly educated Christians, with 33 percent reporting a college degree, surpassed only by Orthodox Christians.

• In 2007, 44 percent of Mormons were men and 56 percent were women. The gap narrowed some in 2014, to 46-54, close to the Christian sample (45-55) and the overall sample (48-52). Non-Christian faiths reported more men (54-46) as did unaffiliated "nones" (57-43).

• Mormons are concentrated in the West (67 percent). In fact, 5 percent of Westerners identify as Latter-day Saints or Mormons.

i know almost nothing about Mormons. i’ve read/paid more attention after learning of some family ancestry with the earliest Mormons and their migration out of the U.S. to (the then Mexican Territory) of Utah. As Ernie describes, much has changed since their early days, when they were hated and fairly run out of Illinois/the U.S.

I guess it depends on how one defines "successful." Read books by those who escaped Mormonism (and it can be very hard), and "successful" won't be the description that comes to mind. And that's aside from the heresy inherent in the cult.

[temporal1]

Joy:
I guess it depends on how one defines "successful."
Read books by those who escaped Mormonism (and it can be very hard), and "successful" won't be the description that comes to mind. And that's aside from the heresy inherent in the cult.

So true. As we read of escapees from Scientism, JWs, also, Amish and probably all Christian groups, maybe all religions/groups? Atheists, homosexual parents also have escapees with horror stories.
Abuse happens, victims happen.

i’d like to add, patriarchies are not just Christian, i venture to guess, most people groups and faiths are some form patriarchy.
a number are known to be shockingly abusive (in Western eyes).

It seems to be similar to general news reporting, failures get the center stage, those getting it right are ignored.
The more dramatic the failure, the more attention.

i’m not sure i’ll live to see this pattern change.

For the sake of young people coming along, i would sure like to see emphasis on GOOD ROLE MODELS rather than lurid failures.
They need it so much.

[Sudsy]

Those who rail against “patriarchies” are arguing with their Creator and nature itself; scratch beneath the surface of anyone against “the patriarchy” and you’ll find someone who has rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son.

So all Pentecostals, Wesleyan, Salvation Army (SA) and various others have 'rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son' ? Did I understand you correctly?

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

[temporal1]

A new related thread:

Headship Series (youtube videos) / Spoken Word
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4892

This guy seems to have the most coherent exposition of the "egalitarian" position than any offered so far.
The whole argument is based on semantics, and obscure etymologies of various words.

i’ve begun viewing, no conclusion yet. ^^

This forum is NOT GOOD about respecting topics created to FIND GOOD in various topics, is it?
Debate+criticism reign.

This link is not from a Christian perspective:

“Power Tool: Appreciation vs. Criticism”
https://coachcampus.com/coach-portfolio ... criticism/

[temporal1]

Those who rail against “patriarchies” are arguing with their Creator and nature itself; scratch beneath the surface of anyone against “the patriarchy” and you’ll find someone who has rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son.

So all Pentecostals, Wesleyan, Salvation Army (SA) and various others have 'rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son' ? Did I understand you correctly?

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

New topic? “Good things about Sudsy’s egalitarian beliefs?”

[Sudsy]

Those who rail against “patriarchies” are arguing with their Creator and nature itself; scratch beneath the surface of anyone against “the patriarchy” and you’ll find someone who has rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son.

So all Pentecostals, Wesleyan, Salvation Army (SA) and various others have 'rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son' ? Did I understand you correctly?

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

New topic? “Good things about Sudsy’s egalitarian beliefs?”

Cute !

[Soloist]

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

No one is devaluing women. Scripture is clear that the woman is to submit to the husband. Is man devalued because he obeys the government? Is a child devalued because they have to obey their parents?

In the perfect world, a husband would honor his wife's opinion on things and consider her better then himself and treat her as Christ treats the church. In a perfect world, a wife won't have to fear being obedient to her husband.

Part of being a Christian is submitting to God's role that He created for us. It doesn't have to make sense to our earthly perspective. Perhaps I would be less stressed if I didn't have to lead my family and carry the responsibility of bad choices, but God still holds me responsible regardless of if I lead or am led. Look at Adam.
I'll have my wife reply to you at some point as she is perfectly capable of defending the Biblical truth herself and it carries more weight to have a woman arguing that her place is Biblical and obedient to God.

[nett]

So all Pentecostals, Wesleyan, Salvation Army (SA) and various others have 'rejected both their Heavenly Father and also His Son' ? Did I understand you correctly?

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

It's not devaluing at all. It's merely reading scripture and accepting it's truth

1 Timothy 2
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

You don't even need to read the Bible to observe that matriarchy is generally disastrous.

[Soloist]

Wife
I often get this from some of my family members and other people. People think that because the Bible talks about the wife submitting to her husband, we must be less valuable. In fact, myself and most of the ladies I know seem to be valued a lot more than a lot of the so called liberated ladies who have boyfriends or husbands who are perfectly fine leaving them for someone younger or prettier. In fact, I'm the only one in my family who is still married and whose significant other actually treated her decently. Also, the guy at work who got on my husband's case for me basically being his slave was the same one several of the nurses/caregivers reported for sexual harassment and flirting with a 14 year old.

It seems like the majority of these so called patriarchal preachers (at least in our circles) spend much more time on preaching about men loving their wives than wives submitting, You especially here this with mothers day/fathers day sermons with a lot more praise on moms/wives and a lot more step up to the plate with dads. They also had all the guys cook for the shared meal and the bishop likes having equal amounts of males/females do dishes at large events. These men also tend to think VERY POORLY on a guy mistreating his wife and will upbraid him for it and intervene. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples, but that's like my friend's children trying to tell me seatbelts are bad because some guy was saved by not wearing it.

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

Anyway, I'm not saying there is nothing good with Salvation Army or Methodist groups although i would disagree with some of their other theology, but when they say that, they are basically saying they are resisting a system set up by God, and I can't see how they can be spirit led and resist God. God definitely values women. He stands up for the widows and the fatherless, and in the same chapter that says that wives should be in subjection to their own husbands (not to the point of disobeying God), it also states basically that abusive husbands don't get their prayers answered.

Jesus stood against devaluing women when He emphasized the permanence of marriage. Also, as the Son of God and Someone who obviously wasn't too concerned about being politically correct in His time, He could have easily established women as some of His 12. After all, Peter probably couldn't read or write either. Paul emphasized that there was no difference in value, but also said in numerous epistles that women were not to teach or have authority over men, even saying that this was a commandment of the Lord.

Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:36-37 ESV

If Paul was masking his chauvinism by trying to say it was a God ordained commandment, how can you believe his doctrine of salvation by grace through faith? How can you believe Isaiah, Peter, and any other person who speaks against women in leadership? How can you even believe in the story of Adam and Eve?

There are a lot of other stories in the Old Testament of men and kings trying to step out of place and do the duties of a priest, or Moses ect, and those didn't end well. Doesn't mean their assigned role was less valuable to God than the role they wanted to fill (Korah's sons were some great poets), just that we need to accept and embrace what God has for us and not envy others. After all, if the last should be first, maybe God values us women more than you think.

[Soloist]

Wife
I often get this from some of my family members and other people. People think that because the Bible talks about the wife submitting to her husband, we must be less valuable. I wou;d find that most of the ladies I know (including myself) seem to be valued a lot more than a lot of the so called liberated ladies who have boyfriends or husbands who are perfectly fine leaving them for someone younger or prettier. In fact, I'm the only one in my family who is still married and whose significant other actually treated her decently. Also, the guy at work who got on my husband's case for me basically being his slave was the same one several of the nurses/caregivers reported for sexual harassment and flirting with a 14 year old.

It seems like the majority of these so called patriarchal preachers (at least in our circles) spend much more time on preaching about men loving their wives than wives submitting, You especially here this with mothers day/fathers day sermons with a lot more praise on moms/wives and a lot more step up to the plate with dads. They also had all the guys cook for the shared meal and the bishop likes having equal amounts of males/females do dishes at large events. These men also tend to think VERY POORLY on a guy mistreating his wife and will upbraid him for it and intervene. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples, but that's like my friend's children trying to tell me seatbelts are bad because some guy was saved by not wearing it.

From an SA article - 'Being egalitarian means we resist patriarchy, which is the act of orienting a system towards males and devaluing women.'

Anyway, I'm not saying there is nothing good with Salvation Army or Methodist groups although i would disagree with some of their other theology, but when they say that, they are basically saying they are resisting a system set up by God, and I can't see how they can be spirit led and resist God. God definitely values women. He stands up for the widows and the fatherless, and in the same chapter that says that wives should be in subjection to their own husbands (not to the point of disobeying God), it also states basically that abusive husbands don't get their prayers answered.

Jesus stood against devaluing women when He emphasized the permanence of marriage. Also, as the Son of God and Someone who obviously wasn't too concerned about being politically correct in His time, He could have easily established women as some of His 12. After all, Peter probably couldn't read or write either. Paul emphasized that there was no difference in value, but also said in numerous epistles that women were not to teach or have authority over men, even saying that this was a commandment of the Lord.

Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:36-37 ESV

If Paul was masking his chauvinism by trying to say it was a God ordained commandment, how can you believe his doctrine of salvation by grace through faith? How can you believe Isaiah, Peter, and any other person who speaks against women in leadership? How can you even believe in the story of Adam and Eve?

There are a lot of other stories in the Old Testament of men and kings trying to step out of place and do the duties of a priest, or Moses ect, and those didn't end well. Doesn't mean their assigned role was less valuable to God than the role they wanted to fill (Korah's sons were some great poets), just that we need to accept and embrace what God has for us and not envy others. After all, if the last should be first, maybe God values us women more than you think.