Fatherlessness and youth violence

[temporal1]

This report reappeared recently.

Feb 2018 / “Of the 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Had One Thing in Common”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/markmeckl ... ng-common/

.. Mr. Black is correct that boys are broken. But they’re not broken as a result of being cavemen who haven’t “evolved” the way women have. They’re broken for another reason.

They are fatherless.

.. Yes, yes, and a thousand times yes.

Fatherlessness is a serious problem.
America’s boys have been under stress for decades.
It’s not toxic masculinity hurting them, it’s the fact that when they come home there are no fathers there. Plain and simple.

Add that to a bunch of horrible cultural trends telling them that everything bad is good (gang culture, drugs, misogyny, etc.), and we’ve got a serious problem on our hands.

Venker goes on to explain that of CNN’s list of the “27 Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History, only one was raised by his biological father since childhood.

“Indeed, there is a direct correlation between boys who grow up with absent fathers and boys who drop out of school, who drink, who do drugs, who become delinquent and who wind up in prison,”
she writes. “And who kill their classmates.”

This problem can’t be solved by any policy, or any sort of gun control. It is time to have a serious discussion about the degradation of our cultural norms.

Well. Jesus Christ is needed in leadership of, families, and, “cultural norms.”
Men have important roles in all cultures, all faiths.

Current “evolved” PC western politics are doing a lot of harm, much of it attempting to “out-smart” God. “Let’s do it our way!”

Some saw this coming decades ago, about so many single-parent homes, usually with mother, father not present. Their warnings were essentially ignored.

i’m sad about the loss of BILL COSBY as a leader. i was not a big fan, but ..
i believe, in the 1980’s, he was on Oprah? (i can’t find a clip of it, i’ve looked several times)
he spoke very seriously about a coming disaster in the black community, due to so many fatherless homes. as i recall, he explained, he wasn’t alone, there were groups of black leaders meeting to address this problem and others - in attempt to guide the future.

i was touched by this, i did not know his serious side. this was before his son was murdered. (?)
i had no idea this was going on “under the mainstream radar,” and, i prayed for them to be effective and successful in making a difference. i’m not sure i’ve heard anymore about it, but, i’ve prayed they have continued. i’m sad to witness, things Bill Cosby described, have unfolded as he warned. so many fatherless homes, not in black communities, alone.

He wasn’t saying this was a new problem at that time.
He said it was a problem that was headed to explode.

Husbands and fathers are needed in homes.
so much of western culture seems intent on pushing them out.
not that they are “always irresponsible,” but, somehow, many are pushed out.

Boys need male leadership in unique ways that the most loving mothers cannot replace.

God designed us to be flexible to adjust to all sorts of imperfect earthly situations.
By His grace, somehow, we do!

That doesn’t mean the holes in our hearts from missing persons don’t exist.

[Szdfan]

i’m sad about the loss of BILL COSBY as a leader. i was not a big fan, but ..

Just for the record, the “loss” of Cosby’s leadership is because he raped at least 60 women between 1965 and 2008, often using Quaaludes to drug them.

In light of this history, I find it difficult to take Cosby’s moralizing. Perhaps there are other examples out there that are better?

[temporal1]

i’m sad about the loss of BILL COSBY as a leader. i was not a big fan, but ..

Just for the record, the “loss” of Cosby’s leadership is because he raped at least 60 women between 1965 and 2008, often using Quaaludes to drug them.

In light of this history, I find it difficult to take Cosby’s moralizing. Perhaps there are other examples out there that are better?

i’m sure there are better examples, he spoke of them (in that group) that day.
i’m not privy to them, he was not describing a public or political group. not a named church group.
from what he described, it was a .. “grass roots?” group, altho made up of (black) leaders who were successful in their own lives, families, churches, communities, business .. he was specifically speaking about the black community.

maybe somewhat like the “group” here. i have no idea if the group ^^ continues.

you may take it or leave it.

i mourn how sin comes at such a high price. when he could have done so much good, sin ruined it.
i believe part of him wanted to do good. sin cost him, and known and unknown others.

sin always has a price. there is a ripple effect of damage, the price is not confined to the sinner.

you are mistaken to think i’m ignoring or glorifying what he did.
the loss of what he might have done is worth thinking over.

after all. each of us must decide which choices we will make, and weigh the costs.
every single day.

- - - - - -

do you think MLK JR should be deposed as a leader due to his carnal sins?
he was a pastor, not just a community or political leader.
Bill Cosby was an entertainer, a field known throughout history as being morally corrupt.

sin has a high price.

This thread is not intended to focus on sinners, but the importance of fathers to their sons, their wives and families. Possibly, abortion rates would seriously decline with fathers present in their daughters’ lives. Violence, quiet in wombs.

violence. hmm.
are abortion rates higher for females with no father present in the home? hmm.

[Szdfan]

you may take it or leave it.

I was actually a fan of Cosby. I haven't heard or watched anything from him since the allegations and the trial, but I enjoyed his recordings and I think that the "Cosby Show" is landmark and important television. I think I may have even read one of his books in high school. We made jigglers as a kid because of his TV commercials for jello. However, one of the lines for me is that I can't take any of his moralizing seriously. He raped an average of 1-2 women a year for over 40 years. He's not someone to look up to.

i mourn how sin comes at such a high price. when he could have done so much good, sin ruined it.
i believe part of him wanted to do good. sin cost him, and known and unknown others.

sin always has a price. there is a ripple effect of damage, the price is not confined to the sinner.

I do believe in the reality of sin, but I want to be careful not to diminish the impact of what he did. I get uncomfortable with using the phrase "sin" because it is an equalizer (i.e. we all sin) and I think it can diminish the gravity of what someone has done. Here is a rich, powerful, influential and well-loved person who raped at least sixty women. This kind of serial rapist behavior is sociopathic and I don't want to diminish that.

That's not to say that Cosby didn't have good intentions in some areas -- people are complicated -- but I do think his negative actions caused more damage than his good intentions and actions.

you are mistaken to think i’m ignoring or glorifying what he did.
the loss of what he might have done is worth thinking over.

after all. each of us must decide which choices we will make, and weigh the costs.
every single day.

Ok.

do you think MLK JR should be deposed as a leader due to his carnal sins?
he was a pastor, not just a community or political leader.
Bill Cosby was an entertainer, a field known throughout history as being morally corrupt.

I'm going to give you a not very satisfying answer (at least not satisfying to me), but it's the best answer I have right now.

The allegations revealed by David Garrow have colored my perception and understanding of King. He is still someone I admire, but I have backed away from using his writings and speeches as inspiration from my own life. I don't hold up King as an example or inspiration for my daughters. I am deeply troubled by all of this.

At the same time, I'm not yet prepared to completely dump King either. Garrow is a very legitimate source, but at the same time, I'm cautious about accepting at face value FBI documents about Civil Rights leaders. After all, the FBI famously wrote a fake letter to King with the hope that it would lead him to commit suicide.

The problem with the Garrow allegations is that he only had access to the reports and notes from these surveillance tapes. The original tapes are under seal until 2027 and therefore, there is nothing at this point to validate these notes to. I think that until these tapes are released and historians can do some serious work analyzing them, then I'm going to be in this ambiguous space about it.

Like I said, not satisfying, but I guess we can discuss it again in seven years.

[temporal1]

Szd:

you may take it or leave it.

I was actually a fan of Cosby.
I haven't heard or watched anything from him since the allegations and the trial, but I enjoyed his recordings and I think that the "Cosby Show" is landmark and important television. I think I may have even read one of his books in high school. We made jigglers as a kid because of his TV commercials for jello.

However, one of the lines for me is that I can't take any of his moralizing seriously.
He raped an average of 1-2 women a year for over 40 years. He's not someone to look up to.

i see. you had a personal investment in him, i did not.
i saw him as an entertainer, knew he was very popular, but, i’m often neutral on popular figures, esp hollywood types. throughout history, entertainers have largely been considered the dregs of society, enjoyable, but not ones to idolize or hope your children would socialize with or marry.
not to emulate. “good”/decent/respectable families would not willingly send their young ones to hollywood, known for immorality.

in the 20th Century, western culture, esp hollywood, allowed entertainers (and athletes) to become very wealthy, wealth can buy a lot of credibility, and influence.

the word, “idol,” was a whispered word to be feared when i was young. over my lifetime, it has been normalized to the point young people have no idea what it means, in scriptural context.
TV shows make regular use of it.

so, no. i thought Bill Cosby was ok. far from a fan. just another entertainer.
i viewed Oprah. i was not a fan, or idol worshiper, she still has many.

the “warning speech” he gave was long before his personal life was revealed.
it was serious, to the point, not lengthy.

frankly, it was the FIRST time he got my attention. he was not being goofy or frivolous.
by all accounts, it was an unusual TV moment.

he was sharing insights to worlds and thinking i had no access to, and, i was glad to know it existed.
the mainstream covers what they choose, and, what they choose is a narrow slice of reality.

evenso, i was not interested in following him. i’m not an idol-seeking kinda person.
that’s doomed to disappointment and failure (hollywood never bothers to mention).

but, i was interested to know more about what these folks he spoke of were doing.
to repeat, possibly similar to folks i enjoy reading from on this forum, i.e., real life people “organically” (not politically) attempting to leave the world a better place.

(i think) a lot of black+white thinking results from failed idol worship.
understandably, once we feel betrayed, we feel angry and dirty. we want to “be rid of it.”

learning Bill Cosby lived a ruinous life in hollywood repulses me, but doesn’t surprise me.

what surprised me was the glimpse of something more beneath the surface.
he relayed a sense of urgency about fatherless homes i’d not heard before.

i was sad when his son was murdered. this also happened before his sins/crimes were revealed.

.. Presently, i speak knowing he has stood trial and is incarcerated for his crimes.
i’m not attempting to question or tamper with any of that. i don’t want my family anywhere near hollywood, never did. i’m sad our culture does so much idol worship of such a place.

Szd:

i mourn how sin comes at such a high price. when he could have done so much good, sin ruined it.
i believe part of him wanted to do good. sin cost him, and known and unknown others.

sin always has a price. there is a ripple effect of damage, the price is not confined to the sinner.

I do believe in the reality of sin, but I want to be careful not to diminish the impact of what he did.
I get uncomfortable with using the phrase "sin" because it is an equalizer (i.e. we all sin) and I think it can diminish the gravity of what someone has done. Here is a rich, powerful, influential and well-loved person who raped at least sixty women. This kind of serial rapist behavior is sociopathic and I don't want to diminish that.

That's not to say that Cosby didn't have good intentions in some areas -- people are complicated -- but I do think his negative actions caused more damage than his good intentions and actions.

i think this is well addressed in the JMast/CAM threads. i did not foresee this important topic of fatherless homes derailing over it.

i understand your point, it’s also important, but, because some have failed with it and exploited it does not make it a universal failure. i’m not sure how to word things to satisfy every potential scenario.

Szd:

you are mistaken to think i’m ignoring or glorifying what he did.
the loss of what he might have done is worth thinking over.

after all. each of us must decide which choices we will make, and weigh the costs.
every single day.

Ok.

Szd:

do you think MLK JR should be deposed as a leader due to his carnal sins?
he was a pastor, not just a community or political leader.
Bill Cosby was an entertainer, a field known throughout history as being morally corrupt.

I'm going to give you a not very satisfying answer (at least not satisfying to me), but it's the best answer I have right now.

The allegations revealed by David Garrow have colored my perception and understanding of King.
He is still someone I admire, but I have backed away from using his writings and speeches as inspiration from my own life.
I don't hold up King as an example or inspiration for my daughters.
I am deeply troubled by all of this.

At the same time, I'm not yet prepared to completely dump King either. Garrow is a very legitimate source, but at the same time, I'm cautious about accepting at face value FBI documents about Civil Rights leaders. After all, the FBI famously wrote a fake letter to King with the hope that it would lead him to commit suicide.

The problem with the Garrow allegations is that he only had access to the reports and notes from these surveillance tapes. The original tapes are under seal until 2027 and therefore, there is nothing at this point to validate these notes to. I think that until these tapes are released and historians can do some serious work analyzing them, then I'm going to be in this ambiguous space about it.

Like I said, not satisfying, but I guess we can discuss it again in seven years.

“me, too.”

again, the idol worship factor with MLK JR troubles me.
in his case, an official, nation-wide, taught in gov schools, taxpayer-funded idol worship.

imho, our youthful, youth-adoring culture took a wrong turn at the idol worship corner.

i do wonder, if he could revisit today, what on earth would he make of all that’s transpired since his death? some positives, lots of negatives, lots of exploiting his name and life (for personal gain).

i would hope, being a pastor, he would soundly reject idol worship.

[Josh]

I'm at a loss as how to understand that Cosby's moral problems have anything to do with the fact that fatherlessness is a problem.

[temporal1]

I'm at a loss as how to understand that Cosby's moral problems have anything to do with the fact that fatherlessness is a problem.

That’s MN for ya.

[Elbee]

Maybe we have this whole thing upside down. Maybe it isn't so much that these men did not have a dad as that these men were not dads themselves. (I did not personally dig into the data to verify this.)

Who has more influence on who? Who gives purpose in life to the other? A dad on his son, or a son on his dad?

[temporal1]

Maybe we have this whole thing upside down.
Maybe it isn't so much that these men did not have a dad as that these men were not dads themselves. (I did not personally dig into the data to verify this.)

Who has more influence on who?
Who gives purpose in life to the other? A dad on his son, or a son on his dad?

Welcome to MN -
Thank you for responding to the OP.

When i read the OP opinion piece, i was appreciative of someone taking the time to THINK about the problem of mass murder and violence from a different point of view, other than “the one” offered in the mainstream, i.e., increase restrictive gun laws (on law-abiding citizens).

This is pointing out 1 commonality, fatherlessness, i suspect there are more.
It requires thought and problem-solving, outside the (now default) realm of government policies (as the author states).

The author does not list the 27 murderers by name/age, i presumed these to be teens, maybe early 20’s? A lot of violence, gun violence, and other types of violent crimes, is committed by (mostly) young males. Mostly of ages before they would be expected to be married with families. Often, they commit suicide or are killed as a result of their crimes.

Certainly, fatherhood, and parenthood, can, and should bring a lot of meaning and purpose to life.
However, if fathers do not remain present for their families, there is no opp for this integral part of life to develop.

Recently, i read a comment from (someone-somewhere) on this.
To paraphrase, this person suggested that decades ago, laws were put in place that opened doors for women/mothers to “marry the government” to raise their families.

i had not before heard it worded just like that.

But, you know .. it resonates.
The nuclear family unit has been damaged.
Beside the problem of men running away from the families they sire, there is a lot of pushing men away from their families, too. What is there to discourage this? Where is the encouragement and motivation for men to remain present?

Some men have 10-20-30 children with numbers of women. The women allow it. Why?
Without gov enabling this, how often would it happen?

It’s not a polygamous culture.
The parents are typically not married, fathers do not contribute or support their offspring, government does. It’s not structured to be any sort of functioning society.

i appreciate this article is an attempt to begin asking the harder problems of what is being done wrong, rather than ignoring all that and defaulting to, “MORE HUMAN LAW.” maybe too much law is the problem. is human law eroding families?

The article is about mass murders (by fatherless young men).
My thoughts are more general, about the general high incidence of violence (by fatherless young men). Mass murderers often come from financially comfortable, but fatherless, homes.

Economic status does not seem to replace real-time presence of fathers in their sons’ lives.
Fatherlessness is a problem in all socio-economic groups.

[EJM]

Fatherless children are vulnerable to say the least.
I heard in the state where I live, 38 out of 40 inmates in prison did not grow up with both biological parents.
Seems like there is a huge shortage of men in the world, there are lots of wimps, losers, bums, and sodomites but precious few men. Most are into porn and avail themselves of much of the wickedness presented to them and disregard the children they produce.
I feel really bad for the girls in the non CA world looking for a life soul mate.