Public libraries. 21st Century saloons?

[Szdfan]

I will say we live in a conservative rural area so while yes the city seems to have gotten on board with pushing the LGBTQ agenda it hasn't spilled to the library- which is county not city owned. Maybe that is why.

Or perhaps these things are not as widespread as people say they are. I get a bit suspicious if it's always someone else's library that's causing all these problems.

Szd,

Are you asserting the things like the drag queen story hour movement don’t exist?

No, but I question the moral panic over it. I question whether "drag queen story hour" is by itself obscene or pornographic. I don't believe that the presence of a drag queen by itself is pornographic or harms children.

Coincidentally, I yesterday watched the 1957 Bugs Bunny cartoon "What's Up Opera," which adapts and uses songs from Richard Wagner's
"Nibelungenlied" ring cycle. The short opens up with Elmer Fudd dressed up as the demigod Siegfried singing "Kill the Wabbit" to the tune of "Ride of the Valkyrie."

In response, Bugs Bunny (that Waskily Wabbit) dresses in drag as Brumhilde to fool Elmer. At one point, Elmer and Bugs in drag sing about their deep love for each other for comedic effect.



Is this obscene? Is this pornographic? Were Chuck Jones and the Warner Brothers animation department pedophiles and grooming children in the 1940s and 50s?

I have no problem if you don't want to send your children to Drag Queen Story Hour or if there are certain kinds of books you don't want to read. You lose me when you try to make that choice for other parents and their children.

[temporal1]

Douglas County Oregon - along with many other Oregon Counties - have vast forests that are owned by the government. These forests provided jobs back when logging was huge. Then environmentalists caused the logging and jobs to decline. I think there was a deal struck where these rural counties were given state or federal money to offset the decline in county revenue from logging these lands.

Then, the state/federal government stopped these payments to the counties. And that is why these libraries had to close.

Nothing to do with Christian homeschoolers.

^^They’ll jump to pretend so, tho. The Flamboyant Among Us.

In my community, public libraries are one of the very few safe indoor public spaces that we bother to create for children. Take them away and what is left? The mall?
In my experience, those who seek to take away libraries are motivated more by greed and selfishness rather than any concern for the interests of children.

Where have you found any indication, on forum, or in any community, anyone is “seeking to take away” libraries?
Who are these greedy and selfish people you describe? i’ve never met or heard of any such person. anywhere, ever.

How many links to news articles do you want me to post about local communities that have voted to close local libraries? Usually it is accompanied by a campaign to denigrate and smear the local library and local librarians.

Here is Douglas County Oregon a few years ago: https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/201 ... to_cl.html
Here is a town in Michigan: https://www.bridgemi.com/talent-educati ... -may-close

Around here it is actually the conservative Christian homeschooling community that makes the most heaviest use of local libraries. There are homeschool activities happening nearly every single day at our local libraries during the school week. The public schools have their own school libraries. The public libraries are the only facilities available to homeschoolers.

^^o. tax funding problems. not confined to libraries. a regular theme in my lifetime.

this reminds me.
altho the libraries i grew up with were busy, often, with parking space problems, we lived in one small town where there was always parking, and not ever busy with visitors. sure, i can see where fundng is sometimes a problem, plus, communities that just don’t use libraries much. taxpayers don’t like paying for empty buildings.

Additionally, now that so many read online, buy online, bookstores have disappeared.
i never imagined this would happen in my county, there were lots of busy bookstores. no more.

Count on The Flamboyant Among Us to make it all about them - while hustling for more political muscle+money.
It’s their Play Book. They’re really good at it. Organized.

- - - - - - -

i believe you’re mistaken about home school options.

probably dependent on state+local laws, home school families PAY TAXES, and have access to school libraries and other facilities.
near me, at least one family had students playing with local school sports teams (they PAY TAXES) .. at least some Catholic schools welcome home school students. i wanted my public school grdaughter to take Latin at her nearby Catholic school. it was possible. didn’t work out.

[RZehr]

Were Chuck Jones and the Warner Brothers animation department pedophiles and grooming children in the 1940s and 50s?

Probably. Same with Walt Disney. At any rate, they did in fact insert a lot of dirty stuff - stuff that my grandparents generation strongly objected to.

[temporal1]

Were Chuck Jones and the Warner Brothers animation department pedophiles and grooming children in the 1940s and 50s?

Probably. Same with Walt Disney. At any rate, they did in fact insert a lot of dirty stuff - stuff that my grandparents generation strongly objected to.

They did, knowing it would go right over children’s heads. And many adults’.
It was intended to be entertainment. Fantasy.
It was not presented as formal education required by law, funded with tax dollars.

[Ken]

Douglas County Oregon - along with many other Oregon Counties - have vast forests that are owned by the government. These forests provided jobs back when logging was huge. Then environmentalists caused the logging and jobs to decline. I think there was a deal struck where these rural counties were given state or federal money to offset the decline in county revenue from logging these lands.

Then, the state/federal government stopped these payments to the counties. And that is why these libraries had to close.

Nothing to do with Christian homeschoolers.

Douglas County and other timber counties had exceedingly low property tax rates for decades because they were getting subsidy payments from the government (the equivalent of property taxes) for the massive amount of public forest lands that fell within those counties. When those subsidy payments were reduced, those communities were faced with raising their own property taxes to pay for normal government services that every other community in the state had already been paying for all along. In a few places like Douglas County and Josephine County the local people simply chose not to do that. And consequently faced library closures, cutbacks to police and law enforcement, cutbacks to county road maintenance, cutbacks to schools, and so forth.

This was a choice by the people of those counties. They would rather keep their artificially low taxes than pay for the services that other communities have always paid for routinely. You can look up the property tax rates for every county in Oregon. What you will find is that in Douglas County the tax rate is 0.79% and in Josephine County where they have also closed libraries it is 0.66%. That is substantially lower than your own tax rate in Jefferson County (0.92%) or most of the more urban counties that are at 1% or higher. https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-pro ... tor#oregon

And no, library closures have nothing to do with homeschoolers. The point about homeschoolers is that they are the group that makes the MOST use of public libraries and is most reliant on them here in my community and I suspect in most others. Consequently it was the homeschool community in Douglas County that was most affected by library closures. The kids attending public schools at least still had their school libraries available.

[Szdfan]

Were Chuck Jones and the Warner Brothers animation department pedophiles and grooming children in the 1940s and 50s?

Probably. Same with Walt Disney. At any rate, they did in fact insert a lot of dirty stuff - stuff that my grandparents generation strongly objected to.

They did, knowing it would go right over children’s heads. And many adults’.
It was intended to be entertainment. Fantasy.
It was not presented as formal education required by law, funded with tax dollars.

Neither is Drag Queen Story Hour. Nobody is requiring anyone to take their children and attend these things.

[RZehr]

Douglas County Oregon - along with many other Oregon Counties - have vast forests that are owned by the government. These forests provided jobs back when logging was huge. Then environmentalists caused the logging and jobs to decline. I think there was a deal struck where these rural counties were given state or federal money to offset the decline in county revenue from logging these lands.

Then, the state/federal government stopped these payments to the counties. And that is why these libraries had to close.

Nothing to do with Christian homeschoolers.

Douglas County and other timber counties had exceedingly low property tax rates for decades because they were getting subsidy payments from the government (the equivalent of property taxes) for the massive amount of public forest lands that fell within those counties. When those subsidy payments were reduced, those communities were faced with raising their own property taxes to pay for normal government services that every other community in the state had already been paying for all along. In a few places like Douglas County and Josephine County the local people simply chose not to do that. And consequently faced library closures, cutbacks to police and law enforcement, cutbacks to county road maintenance, cutbacks to schools, and so forth.

This was a choice by the people of those counties. They would rather keep their artificially low taxes than pay for the services that other communities have always paid for routinely. You can look up the property tax rates for every county in Oregon. What you will find is that in Douglas County the tax rate is 0.79% and in Josephine County where they have also closed libraries it is 0.66%. That is substantially lower than your own tax rate in Jefferson County (0.92%) or most of the more urban counties that are at 1% or higher. https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-pro ... tor#oregon

And no, library closures have nothing to do with homeschoolers. The point about homeschoolers is that they are the group that makes the MOST use of public libraries and is most reliant on them here in my community and I suspect in most others. Consequently it was the homeschool community in Douglas County that was most affected by library closures. The kids attending public schools at least still had their school libraries available.

But why were they getting those federal payments? It was because they were not allowed to log on those lands like before, because of environmentalists. And when a huge part of a county is owned be the government, the county cannot collect property taxes on that land.
https://www.doi.gov/pilt

[ken_sylvania]

Is this obscene? Is this pornographic? Were Chuck Jones and the Warner Brothers animation department pedophiles and grooming children in the 1940s and 50s?

Yes, obscene for sure. What were their intentions? Hard to say, but the radio/tv industry has been full of creeps and deviants and filthy minds since it began. My grandparents had good reason to put radio and TV out of their homes.

[Ken]

Douglas County Oregon - along with many other Oregon Counties - have vast forests that are owned by the government. These forests provided jobs back when logging was huge. Then environmentalists caused the logging and jobs to decline. I think there was a deal struck where these rural counties were given state or federal money to offset the decline in county revenue from logging these lands.

Then, the state/federal government stopped these payments to the counties. And that is why these libraries had to close.

Nothing to do with Christian homeschoolers.

Douglas County and other timber counties had exceedingly low property tax rates for decades because they were getting subsidy payments from the government (the equivalent of property taxes) for the massive amount of public forest lands that fell within those counties. When those subsidy payments were reduced, those communities were faced with raising their own property taxes to pay for normal government services that every other community in the state had already been paying for all along. In a few places like Douglas County and Josephine County the local people simply chose not to do that. And consequently faced library closures, cutbacks to police and law enforcement, cutbacks to county road maintenance, cutbacks to schools, and so forth.

This was a choice by the people of those counties. They would rather keep their artificially low taxes than pay for the services that other communities have always paid for routinely. You can look up the property tax rates for every county in Oregon. What you will find is that in Douglas County the tax rate is 0.79% and in Josephine County where they have also closed libraries it is 0.66%. That is substantially lower than your own tax rate in Jefferson County (0.92%) or most of the more urban counties that are at 1% or higher. https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-pro ... tor#oregon

And no, library closures have nothing to do with homeschoolers. The point about homeschoolers is that they are the group that makes the MOST use of public libraries and is most reliant on them here in my community and I suspect in most others. Consequently it was the homeschool community in Douglas County that was most affected by library closures. The kids attending public schools at least still had their school libraries available.

But why were they getting those federal payments? It was because they were not allowed to log on those lands like before, because of environmentalists. And when a huge part of a county is owned be the government, the county cannot collect property taxes on that land.
https://www.doi.gov/pilt

Environmentalists had little to do with it. Environmentalists and environmental groups have very little power. They did sue the Forest Service to make sure that it actually followed the LAW in managing the public forests (which are the heritage of ALL Americans, not just those who live within nearby counties). But that is it. The Forest Service and the courts decided that they did, indeed, need to actually follow the law when managing our public forests. Imagine that. In this country the government also has to follow the law. In this case laws like the Forest Management Act, Endangered Species Act, and National Environmental Policy Act.

The biggest reason why mills are closing and logging jobs are vanishing is improvements in productivity. It simply takes 1 logger today to do the same amount of work that required 50 loggers a century ago. And the wood products industry is similarly evolving. The old rural mills that used to make 2x4s and other dimensional lumber that were scattered all over rural Oregon a century ago are mostly obsolete, replaced by much bigger mills in the US and Canada that produce much more sophisticated wood products like plywoods and laminated products.

Timber towns in Oregon are going through the same evolution as farming towns in the great plains, mining towns in West Virginia, or fishing towns in New England. When industries become more productive they require far fewer workers. And towns either adjust or wither on the vine.

But in the case of Douglas and Josephine Counties, it is mostly just the unwillingness of local people to accept that they now actually have to pay for the services that the rest of us have paid for all along. My property taxes would drop in half if I had the same tax rates as they currently have in those counties. They would rather have low taxes than libraries or properly funded police, schools, and highways. It is a choice. And when they do have bond elections in those counties to decide whether to find libraries, the "NO" campaign always dredges up all the tired slanderous attacks against local libraries and local librarians. That is what happens.

[ken_sylvania]

Douglas County and other timber counties had exceedingly low property tax rates for decades because they were getting subsidy payments from the government (the equivalent of property taxes) for the massive amount of public forest lands that fell within those counties. When those subsidy payments were reduced, those communities were faced with raising their own property taxes to pay for normal government services that every other community in the state had already been paying for all along. In a few places like Douglas County and Josephine County the local people simply chose not to do that. And consequently faced library closures, cutbacks to police and law enforcement, cutbacks to county road maintenance, cutbacks to schools, and so forth.

This was a choice by the people of those counties. They would rather keep their artificially low taxes than pay for the services that other communities have always paid for routinely. You can look up the property tax rates for every county in Oregon. What you will find is that in Douglas County the tax rate is 0.79% and in Josephine County where they have also closed libraries it is 0.66%. That is substantially lower than your own tax rate in Jefferson County (0.92%) or most of the more urban counties that are at 1% or higher. https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-pro ... tor#oregon

And no, library closures have nothing to do with homeschoolers. The point about homeschoolers is that they are the group that makes the MOST use of public libraries and is most reliant on them here in my community and I suspect in most others. Consequently it was the homeschool community in Douglas County that was most affected by library closures. The kids attending public schools at least still had their school libraries available.

But why were they getting those federal payments? It was because they were not allowed to log on those lands like before, because of environmentalists. And when a huge part of a county is owned be the government, the county cannot collect property taxes on that land.
https://www.doi.gov/pilt

Environmentalists had little to do with it. Environmentalists and environmental groups have very little power. They did sue the Forest Service to make sure that it actually followed the LAW in managing the public forests (which are the heritage of ALL Americans, not just those who live within nearby counties). But that is it. The Forest Service and the courts decided that they did, indeed, need to actually follow the law when managing our public forests. Imagine that. In this country the government also has to follow the law. In this case laws like the Forest Management Act, Endangered Species Act, and National Environmental Policy Act.

The biggest reason why mills are closing and logging jobs are vanishing is improvements in productivity. It simply takes 1 logger today to do the same amount of work that required 50 loggers a century ago. And the wood products industry is similarly evolving. The old rural mills that used to make 2x4s and other dimensional lumber that were scattered all over rural Oregon a century ago are mostly obsolete, replaced by much bigger mills in the US and Canada that produce much more sophisticated wood products like plywoods and laminated products.

Timber towns in Oregon are going through the same evolution as farming towns in the great plains, mining towns in West Virginia, or fishing towns in New England. When industries become more productive they require far fewer workers. And towns either adjust or wither on the vine.

But in the case of Douglas and Josephine Counties, it is mostly just the unwillingness of local people to accept that they now actually have to pay for the services that the rest of us have paid for all along. My property taxes would drop in half if I had the same tax rates as they currently have in those counties. They would rather have low taxes than libraries or properly funded police, schools, and highways. It is a choice.

So why the pejorative language? If the folks from Douglas County would rather have low taxes instead of a library, why should you care? And where do you get the moral authority to say that their decision to have low taxes instead of a library is motivated by greed?