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steve-in-kville wrote:

Josh wrote: For example, the Swartzentruber Amish might seem very “plain”, but also have widespread use of tobacco and some engage in the rather sordid custom of “bed courtship”, which to me seems pretty worldly.

What exactly is bed courtship? Is this the same as "bundling"? I never heard of this before.

.. It's said that the precedent for bundling came from the biblical story of Ruth and Boaz,
in which Ruth, a young widow, and Boaz, a wealthy landowner, spend a night together on a threshing room floor and go on to become husband and wife.

Bundling, or bed courting, as it was also known, was introduced to the American colonies by the early flood of Scots, Welsh, and other European immigrants.
Doubtless, the cold, damp nights of their northern climes contributed to its popularity.
Bundling under the covers panders to a certain Scottish thriftiness toward winter heating bills, as an eighteenth-century ditty confirms:

Since in a bed a man and maid,
May bundle and be chaste,
It does no good to burn out wood,
It is just needless waste. ..

.. Bundling boards are thought to have originated in Northern Europe, but now are usually associated with the Puritans of the American Colonies.
It was a way for young men and women to have some alone time, in an era when that was very scarce for everyone, not just courting couples. After all, most large Puritan families lived in very small, simple homes, so it’s likely that “date night” consisted of dinner and bible study with the siblings.

Consider that the 17th and even 18th centuries were a period without excessive emphasis on emotional bonding before marriage, so it must have been nice for these couples to get a chance to talk through the night before agreeing to the match.

And, it turns out, the bundling board was useful for any kind of bed sharing that was necessary.

There are plenty of historical mentions of bundling boards used in inns where strangers might share a bed or even in private homes when a traveler needed a place to sleep.

At the very least, it would have prevented kicking your bed-mate during the night. Handy!

steve-in-kville wrote:I still can't believe this is still in practice. The only time I ever heard of this was in a movie based on the Revolutionary War.

steve-in-kville wrote:I still can't believe this is still in practice. The only time I ever heard of this was in a movie based on the Revolutionary War.

Josh wrote:

steve-in-kville wrote:I still can't believe this is still in practice. The only time I ever heard of this was in a movie based on the Revolutionary War.

Well, Swartzies tend to avoid anything newer than 1800, so, for example, they don’t use modern gravel on their driveways.

It’s amazing how many conservative seekers refuse to believe they do these things. “I just don’t believe it, they are so plain and seem so godly,” say many, apparently confusing grey fabrics, stiff starched black kapps, and buggies so plain you can’t see them at night with seeking Jesus’ kingdom.

Hats Off wrote:

Josh wrote:

steve-in-kville wrote:I still can't believe this is still in practice. The only time I ever heard of this was in a movie based on the Revolutionary War.

Well, Swartzies tend to avoid anything newer than 1800, so, for example, they don’t use modern gravel on their driveways.

It’s amazing how many conservative seekers refuse to believe they do these things. “I just don’t believe it, they are so plain and seem so godly,” say many, apparently confusing grey fabrics, stiff starched black kapps, and buggies so plain you can’t see them at night with seeking Jesus’ kingdom.

I would suggest being somewhat more respectful towards Shwartzentrubers. We don't gain anything by tearing the other down. Fifty years ago bed courtship seemed to be the standard practice in our OO communities. It was the coming of the Pathway papers that brought awareness of this issue. Like Ira Wagler said in a recent post; those fierce old men that started Pathway have had quite a widespread influence among OO people across North America.

Josh wrote:

Hats Off wrote:

Josh wrote:
Well, Swartzies tend to avoid anything newer than 1800, so, for example, they don’t use modern gravel on their driveways.

It’s amazing how many conservative seekers refuse to believe they do these things. “I just don’t believe it, they are so plain and seem so godly,” say many, apparently confusing grey fabrics, stiff starched black kapps, and buggies so plain you can’t see them at night with seeking Jesus’ kingdom.

I would suggest being somewhat more respectful towards Shwartzentrubers. We don't gain anything by tearing the other down. Fifty years ago bed courtship seemed to be the standard practice in our OO communities. It was the coming of the Pathway papers that brought awareness of this issue. Like Ira Wagler said in a recent post; those fierce old men that started Pathway have had quite a widespread influence among OO people across North America.

Just because something was widespread in OO communities does not somehow make it okay.

Josh wrote: Just because something was widespread in OO communities does not somehow make it okay.

JimFoxvog wrote:

Josh wrote: Just because something was widespread in OO communities does not somehow make it okay.

Just because something is not widespread today does not make it not OK either.