Vaccinations - Poll

[Judas Maccabeus]

I am talking about the kid who was developmentally normal his whole life hitting every milestone and is now in diapers wearing a helmet banging his head on the wall.

Vaccines do not do this. Very rare complications are much less likely than getting a disease because you are unvaccinated.

I live with someone who has polio, which was quite common before mass vaccinations. It’s rare to find anyone age 65+ who is anti vaccine because they grew up with things like polio.

Repeating that vaccines cause autism or mental retardation is repeating lies, end of story. It has no basis in historic or present day Christian belief and faith, and at some point, I believe strong anti-vaccine beliefs are a sign of a serious spiritual problem.

BTW, I am that age, and I grew up with friends that had polio, and a few that were in special schools because their mother had rubella.

If you want a cause, look at this:

https://www.livescience.com/autism-clus ... etics.html

12 at last count. When you think of autism, think genetics.

But than you could not blame the evil big pharma.

J.M.

[Wade]

Wade,

As I pointed out (at least in America), the penalties for breaking drug marketing laws are serious. People go to prison for it - look at Purdue Pharma, which was a crooked drug company. There will be prison sentences and already billions of dollars of assets have been seized because of wrongdoing.

Small personal gifts that show no attachment to funds from a company are a way of giving kickbacks that can go undetected and can be done "without company knowledge."

Please keep in mind that sharing my experience and what I have been told doesn't mean that it is the normal procedure, I hope it isn't, but to say there is no corruption in worldly companies...? Let's just be consistent is all.

I simply don’t think we can paint doctors and pharmaceutical industry as corrupt, and if we do, then the “alternative medicine” industry is far, far more corrupt. So where’s the condemnation of fringe chiropractic, naturopaths, and “natural” remedies which are not proven to cure anything?

An argument against one thing is not an argument in support of another.
To translate:
Asking questions to doctors is not an argument in support of antivaxxers.

Asking why a doctors gives false information about vaccines in not an argument that everything they say is corrupt.

Asking why my doctor would recommend the Hep B shot for my 2 year old when GSK makes 2 billion a year off of the vaccine and they have been found guilty and fined in the past for distributing psychiatric drugs for children that weren't properly approved is not an argument against all vaccines.

A naturopath doctor talking to me for 15 minutes and curing my stomach aches that for 25 years conventional doctors did multiple tests and did more harm is no argument for naturopath doctors or against all conventional medicine.

And because my experience is very limited with chiropractors and naturopaths is not an argument that I avoid them but I really don't have much to say about them except maybe a bit more than what I have already said.

You mean out of the drug reps own pocket? Give me a break. If they expensed it out it would be with company knowledge.

Have you ever worked in a management position in a large company? If you expense anything you have to have a why?

J.M.

I was a superintendent at a plant that was owned by the 125th richest man in the world. I did expense things, in fact one time somehow I must of accidently changed the math in the excel program and when entering a few thousand dollars worth of expenses there was a few hundred dollars over in my favor , the accountant picked up on it and showed me. I was shocked and apologized greatly. She handed me a cheque for the too high of amount and said with a smile "don't worry about it."

[Wade]

Have you ever worked in a management position in a large company? If you expense anything you have to have a why?

J.M.

And just so you can have some more information as I don't want you to feel cornered; in regards to the access I had some of my responsibilities were E&I super, IT head, and I was also the Administrator. So that translated to me having more access to the computer system and personal information about the company than did the GM, the Accountant/Controller, or even the owner. So just because someone is raised a backwoods redneck Hicks doesn't mean they ain't seen a few things or they don't have the ability to speak with some experience.

[Wade]

If you want a cause, look at this:

https://www.livescience.com/autism-clus ... etics.html

12 at last count. When you think of autism, think genetics.

But than you could not blame the evil big pharma.

J.M.

Your misleading again...
From your link:

"We call autism one thing, but it's different in every person. In some, it's all about the genes. Some it's a combination of genes and the environment. Some people, it's unknown," Dr. Wendy Chung, a professor of pediatric medicine at Columbia University, told the Post.

[Judas Maccabeus]

If you want a cause, look at this:

https://www.livescience.com/autism-clus ... etics.html

12 at last count. When you think of autism, think genetics.

But than you could not blame the evil big pharma.

J.M.

Your misleading again...
From your link:

"We call autism one thing, but it's different in every person. In some, it's all about the genes. Some it's a combination of genes and the environment. Some people, it's unknown," Dr. Wendy Chung, a professor of pediatric medicine at Columbia University, told the Post.

You are missing my point. The genetic link is undeniable. This last accidental experiment was the final piece in the puzzle virtually proving a genetic link is real, and the cause in many cases.

What she is saying is that “autism” is not a single disease per se, but a complex of symptoms. Genetics however, has the smoking gun. It’s link to autism is now totally undeniable.

A vaccine link is, however totally without any empirical evidence. In spite of more research dollars being thrown at it than any other potential cause, no link has ever been found.

A more fruitful line of endeavor would be to either accept that the cause is possibly unknowable than to try to blame something we know is not the cause with the harm that vaccine refusal causes society.

This vaccine refusal got into the Ultraorthodox Jewish community here on the east coast, with predictable results. The only way to stop it was mass vaccination Programs. Let me say this, if “kickbacks” were given for vaccinating people, we could retire right now.

J.M.

[Josh]

17% vaccine denialism (based on this poll) is pretty bad.

If this trend continues, concentrated clusters of people who are anti-vaccine will start experiencing outbreaks of disease in the next few years. Samoa is a preview of what’s to come. Nobody is really prepared to experience 1% mortality rates in babies from diseases prevented by vaccines.

But the bigger question is why some trade in the Christian religion for a religion based around being against vaccines. Truly sad to watch.

[violet]

There are many issues going on in Samoa. I don't feel like getting into them.

Bottomline for my husband and I .... go back and reread the thread and reread it carefully.

If you want the 17% to vaccinate...then listen to what they are saying. Work with the concerns. And, my concern is not autism.

read what people are saying. Wade should not have to justify his work experiences in order to be listened to as a parent.

Mandates are not going to work on people such as us.

That will be how you solve this problem.

And, my religion is not "not vaccinating".

[Josh]

There are many issues going on in Samoa. I don't feel like getting into them.

And why not? Samoa is what things look like when people stop vaccinating.

If you want the 17% to vaccinate...then listen to what they are saying. Work with the concerns. And, my concern is not autism.

What concern do you have? Millions of vaccines are given with hardly ever any complications.

How else can someone work with your "concerns"? The leading cause of death is heart disease - so why don't we see similar concern about people losing weight?

read what people are saying. Wade should not have to justify his work experiences in order to be listened to as a parent.

Wade's position is consistently that the medical system is entirely corrupt and can't heal, but we should trust "natural doctors" with unproven remedies. I understand what he's coming from, but there is no reason to allow such thinking to be promoted and it's not even really a good idea to take it seriously.

As harsh as this sounds, folks like and Wade need to leave the darkness and walk into the light, trust God with your health, and quit worrying that the medical profession is out to get you.

[RZehr]

That seems a little off from what I read Wades position to be.

[mike]

That seems a little off from what I read Wades position to be.

I am quite confident that vaccinating is the best path to take based on what I understand of the data and also my own observations, so we follow the schedule recommended by our doctor with the exception of postponing a baby's first shots by a month or two sometimes. However I cringe at the harshness of some of J.M. and Josh's posts. I wouldn't quite phrase the opposing view as a competing religion with Christianity, but I think there are reasons for this reaction which lay at the feet of many anti-vax folks, some of whom I consider close friends, who constantly preach their positions on social media for instance. I am very weary of the diatribes from them on the subject and like many people, I suspect, I completely tune them out. Since I believe Christians shouldn't be involved in government, I don't say one way or another whether the government should require vaccines. I think there are good and understandable reasons why they do, but I don't put my personal support behind forcing anything at the point of a gun, which is essentially what is behind all government regulations of any sort. So I will not give either agenda my hearty support.