How should we be political?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
MaxPC
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote:
I did not address "speaking out", but political involvement, which I am interpreting as "becoming a part of the political process, in order to bring about some change". But I do think that as far as "speaking out" goes, our main focus should be speaking to those within our own kingdom. Our "involvement" in the other kingdom ought to be limited to touching the lives of individual members of that kingdom, as much as possible through one-on-one contact, and secondly, through helping those who do have that one-to-one contact. Rather than "speaking out", I think we should be "acting out" (our faith, by doing what all men are intended to do by God's design, not just as an "example to be followed", but focused on the person(s) involved, to bring about wholeness).
Once Again wrote:Nowhere in the new testament do Jesus or the apostles teach that we should try to advance the kingdom through politics. Isn't getting involved in politics changing our focus from God's Kingdom to the kingdom of this lost and dying world? Voting, political demonstrations and any other sort of political involvement is not going to have the affect we want. Liberal or conservative, Christians who involve themselves in politics end up supporting immoral and corrupt men and women who at best give lip-service to Christian ideals. We are hurting our witness with the lost people we are trying to save by having one foot in the Kingdom and one foot in the world. No matter which side we take, we may end up alienating people who hold to different political views. If we really want to MAGA in a spiritual sense, it will be by reaching out with our words and example.
Amen and amen. :clap: :up:
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Sudsy
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote: I understood them in the same way as you state here, but I think that is a smoke-screen of sorts to justify political involvement. It is at that point that I disagree. They interpret the mere fact of the existence of the conflict between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world as a reason to be involved in the kingdom of this world, or this belief (that there is another Kingdom) in and of itself as a sort of resultant activist/protest involvement. While I did at one time believe that, I no longer think it is a Biblical stance. I believe that when we become a part of the Kingdom of God, we become aliens in the kingdom of the world, and aliens don't vote (except in some Democrat-controlled areas, according to some reports :!: ).
Thankyou and I agree. Imo, I don't really need to be on top of all this political back and forth on how the kingdoms of this world operate to be presenting the Kingdom that we are citizens of. The way I was viewing this is if a person outside the Kingdom began a conversation about their worldly 'kingdom' and what they said was against the Kingdom of God, then instead of learning more about their kingdom, I would use the opportunity to point them to Jesus and focus on them becoming part of a Kingdom with a perfect King that cares for us beyond what any existing human could ever do.

I don't think we see ourselves enough as aliens, foreigners with a limited visa, ambassadors to represent a Kingdom not of this world. If this article is promoting more knowledge and discussions on worldly kingdoms, then I'm against that also. A waste of time with too many negative attitudes that can result from it. Christians warring against other Christians over what earthly kingdom best reflects the Kingdom of God is not productive spiritual warfare.

And personally, I see climate change as another one of these areas that are too temporal to bother with. God is in control and we have nothing to fear.
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RZehr
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by RZehr »

I pretty much agree with the concepts of the writing.

"2. Speak loudest not on the issues most important to you, but those which impact the marginalized, forgotten and the thrown-away."

I agree that we should try not to just have hobby horses. And while we need to prioritize the "marginalized, forgotten and the thrown-away", I think we should be calling all people to repentance. Include humanitarian aid, but also spiritual aid as well.

If the "marginalized" person rejects God, and the rich man receives the Gospel, then go ahead and assist the rich man.
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haithabu
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by haithabu »

When I think of being politically active as a stranger and alien, I frame it in terms of obeying God's direction to the people of Israel found in Jeremiah 29:7:
Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.
Believers will differ on what it means "to seek the peace" of our city in terms of the appropriate level of engagement. Personally, I believe that being the citizen of a democratic country, I have the God-given power to influence it by my vote. Accordingly, I am responsible for how I exercise that power or even if I fail to exercise it when I should.

Beyond that, I'm not sure. However I became involved, I would want to

1) follow kingdom principles of truth, integrity, mercy and love,
2) be able to be open about my faith (without campaigning on it),
3) not to get sucked into the mindset of worldly wisdom described in James 3:14-16 (which comes so easily in an adversarial system),
4) not become so engaged that I lose a sense of detachment as a resident alien and
5) not confuse the goals or the party with which I am working for God's kingdom.

From the kingdom perspective, our party divisions are as arbitrary as the Blue and the Green factions in the Roman chariot races seem to us today. God's kingdom will come in full only when Jesus comes. Christians in politics are not engaged in kingdom building so much as in palliative care for a lost society.

However, I believe that through political engagement believers can put feet to that part of the Lord's Prayer which says "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" by working toward peace and righteousness in however limited form. Christians may not all agree on the ideal social state and we should cut each other some slack on that, but I think we can agree to work against gross injustices and abuses in the city of our exile.

Regarding point (3), I think that it takes a special grace for a believer to be involved in politics while keeping his balance spiritually. Just as it is a special challenge for a believer to be rich or to exercise earthly power in any form.
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Bootstrap
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Bootstrap »

That was a truly excellent post, Haithabu.
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Sudsy
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Sudsy »

Christians may not all agree on the ideal social state and we should cut each other some slack on that, but I think we can agree to work against gross injustices and abuses in the city of our exile.
Haithabu, I think Jesus and the early church gave us examples on this to consider. It was in the demonstration of Kingdom living that in itself exposed and pushed back on the lack in man's system of governing. There was no initiative in those days to tackle the slavery system but rather the teaching was on how slaves and slave owner believers were to operate in a Christ-like manner within that system.

The two major parties in both Canada and the U.S.A. have pros and cons as to how they match up with Kingdom life but regardless of who gets control, I don't see our role as believers changing. Peace will only come through the Prince of Peace in individual hearts of people. What people are seeking through human means is found in the indwelling work of the Spirit.

I especially like your reference to the Jeremiah text as it ties into exactly what Paul wrote in the NT. Prayer for those in power is essential. Even those, whose platform we may think strays the most from Kingdom life.
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haithabu
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by haithabu »

Sudsy wrote:
Christians may not all agree on the ideal social state and we should cut each other some slack on that, but I think we can agree to work against gross injustices and abuses in the city of our exile.
Haithabu, I think Jesus and the early church gave us examples on this to consider. It was in the demonstration of Kingdom living that in itself exposed and pushed back on the lack in man's system of governing. There was no initiative in those days to tackle the slavery system but rather the teaching was on how slaves and slave owner believers were to operate in a Christ-like manner within that system.

The two major parties in both Canada and the U.S.A. have pros and cons as to how they match up with Kingdom life but regardless of who gets control, I don't see our role as believers changing. Peace will only come through the Prince of Peace in individual hearts of people. What people are seeking through human means is found in the indwelling work of the Spirit.

I especially like your reference to the Jeremiah text as it ties into exactly what Paul wrote in the NT. Prayer for those in power is essential. Even those, whose platform we may think strays the most from Kingdom life.
I agree. The gospel provides an all encompassing set of values as to how we are to relate to each other that, faithfully applied, transcends and alters the nature of the power relationships we find ourselves in, regardless of their nominal form. Paul's treatment of slavery in Philemon is a good example: what are you to make of a slave who has become your brother and your friend's son?

Too often we think that social outworking of the gospel begins and ends with outward reform.
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Bootstrap
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:The two major parties in both Canada and the U.S.A. have pros and cons as to how they match up with Kingdom life but regardless of who gets control, I don't see our role as believers changing.
If we are talking about the mainstream views in both parties, I agree. But our life would be quite different under, say, an authoritarian government, a communist government, or an area ruled by warlords. Let's be grateful for what we have here.
Sudsy wrote:Peace will only come through the Prince of Peace in individual hearts of people. What people are seeking through human means is found in the indwelling work of the Spirit.
Amen, but what we do for our own Kingdom can be strongly influenced by what governments do, if Paul was right here:
1 Tim 2 wrote:I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people — for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
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Sudsy
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote: Amen, but what we do for our own Kingdom can be strongly influenced by what governments do, if Paul was right here:
1 Tim 2 wrote:I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people — for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
Notice how all these terms used are about bringing our desires before God in some form of conversation with God. I don't see anything here about critiquing how leaders perform their roles. Imo, political analysis is almost always a divisive topic that we just don't need to be part of. What I am responsible to do in the Kingdom does not need to be a strongly influenced by man's governing. Just like how slavery was approached in Jesus day. You have to live under this system don't fight it. Here is the way both you slaves and you slave owners should live out your Kingdom life under that system.
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Bootstrap
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Bootstrap »

PeterG wrote:Instead of choosing a team, choose not to play. I don't have to choose between being a Sunni or a Shia; I choose not to be a Muslim of any type. Do not allow yourself to be allied to any political faction or personality, not even by default. When you're mistaken for a combatant in a political conflict, set the record straight by word and deed.
I agree with this. But to me, it feels like a lot of people think you are a combatant on the other side if you don't join theirs.

I do vote. I think it's helpful to have citizens in the discussion who do not align with either party and try to think through the issues and work at sorting through the facts to see what is true beyond the partisan fog.

I'm sure some people here think I fail at that ;->
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