How should we be political?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
RZehr
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by RZehr »

We should think in terms of net gain. I don't think the "good" impact of voting out weighs the stigma of doing so. Regardless of which way you vote, someone will view you as an opponent, or a team member. And you spend more energy explaining the nuances of why your voting is somehow different than "they're" voting practices.

And as far as effectiveness in elections I have more faith in prayers.
As far as effectiveness in reaching other people, I have more faith in the position of a non-participant than as a "careful" voter. As most everyone, I don't agree with everything on either party. Since I don't vote I don't get bogged down in Republican vs Democrat discussions with people and we can backup and discuss separation which in my opinion is a better discussion.

My two cents.
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RZehr
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by RZehr »

* "Their"
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MaxPC
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:We should think in terms of net gain. I don't think the "good" impact of voting out weighs the stigma of doing so. Regardless of which way you vote, someone will view you as an opponent, or a team member. And you spend more energy explaining the nuances of why your voting is somehow different than "they're" voting practices.

And as far as effectiveness in elections I have more faith in prayers.
As far as effectiveness in reaching other people, I have more faith in the position of a non-participant than as a "careful" voter. As most everyone, I don't agree with everything on either party. Since I don't vote I don't get bogged down in Republican vs Democrat discussions with people and we can backup and discuss separation which in my opinion is a better discussion.

My two cents.
Amen and amen.
:up:
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Dan Z
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Dan Z »

mike wrote:One way to be politics-free is to not post in DanZ's thread. :)

In all seriousness, the rancor and high emotions that come up in the political threads are often not all that fun anyway. Yes, I do follow politics, but I have problems with both the political right and left, and sometimes I just tune them both out. I'm not sure how different they end up being, in some ways, anyway.
This is well said Mike...and I'm with you in principle.

The rancor, high emotions, ad hominem attacks, sniping, and partisan loyalty are the least helpful and least enjoyable portions of these political discussions for me as well (something we've all contributed to in our weaker moments) - and if that were all there was to it, that would be reason enough to stay out of the Current Events & Politics section all together. A lot of political discourse (including much of what is here on MennoNet) is not rational but emotional, not ethical but tribal...it is not interested in learning, but in scoring points for one's team (teams, I would add, that have nothing to do with the Kingdom). So...like my mom used to say, "If you children can't play nicely, then you shouldn't play at all!"

But...

As I've said in earlier posts (see below), I believe it is important that we (Anabaptist Christians) learn to work together at understanding and spiritually/ethically evaluating what is going on in society around us, (and in the hearts and minds of each other too). That's generally why I start and take part in these political discussions - I see the benefit in it, and my need for it.

I would hope that most of us could be mature enough and find sufficient common ground in faith that we could:
  • - Learn to play nicely (even if all the other kids in the neighborhood don't know how).
    - Not "take the bait" from those who haven't learned how to play nicely yet.
    - Be humble and open enough to learn from each other, and have our assumptions challenged.
    - Not pre-judge the motives or personality of others, but accept their points at face value.
    - Remember together that our loyalty and allegiance is to Christ (not Trump or Obama or their parties).
    - Not try to score points, or win cudos from those who think like we do. MennoNet isn't a contest.
Honestly, I think we can do it - and it would be a better witness than simply saying that we've given up because we cant play nicely. :)
DanZ Appendix A wrote: I think that as long as we followers of Jesus are in the world, called to represent the cause of Christ, we need to be keenly aware of what is going on in the context in which we (and our families & businesses & farms & neighbors) find ourselves, and how we need to respond and reach out in the midst of that context.

Like it or not, the governments of this world have huge impacts on the lives and well-being of the people of the world (including us and our families) - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. In that sense, governments can live up to their God-given ordination and help uphold peace and relative stability in a fallen world...or they can rebel and usurp power to be agents of killing and oppression. Scripture tells us that governments are ordained of God for certain just purposes, and furthermore that God is either pleased or displeased by the actions of the powerful...and at times He even chooses to raise up or bring down Kings and nations. If you look at the prophetic tradition of old, it is full of examples where leaders are either praised as just and upright, or condemned as wicked and vile. Here is one that comes to mind:
  • Isaiah 10:1 & 2 Woe to those who enact evil statutes
    And to those who constantly record unjust decisions,
    So as to deprive the needy of justice
    And rob the poor of My people of their rights,
    So that widows may be their spoil
    And that they may plunder the orphans
Saying all this, I recognize that earthly governments are not where our allegiance lies as Christ followers, nor are they the primary means through which the agenda of God is advanced. For that reason I choose not to vote - however, I do choose to constantly work at discerning my surroundings. Unless we decide to live on an island (or in certain parts of Holmes County ;)), we need to be aware of what government is up to, how the context influences the relationships around us, and even how we as the people of God might be called upon to wisely and justly respond in light of our governmental context.
DanZ Appendix B wrote: So...why care about politics then? Especially as a two-kingdom Anabaptist?

Because...
  • Wars are started and ended by governments - under all kinds of rationale.
    People are oppressed, imprisoned, tortured and killed by governments - for all kinds of reasons.
    From biblical times to today, governments have sanctioned things like genocide and infanticide and slavery.
    Governments often feed the poor and offer help in times of trouble, but they can just as easily cause famine and calamity.
    Governments wield the sword and punish people, sometimes justly and sometimes unjustly.
    Governments educate and/or indoctrinate, they promote freedom of thought and religion - or they limit it.
    Governments tax and control vast wealth, and redistribute it - sometimes to those in need, sometimes to themselves.
    Governments are consequential - always have been (read the narrative in your Bible if your question this)

MennoNet/MennoDiscuss, for me, feels like a safe place where I can come to process my thoughts on what is happening around me in society - and get honest (non-troll) and open feedback from others who share a common faith (even when we don't agree about what we perceive around us). Most of the thoughts about politics I've shared in this thread I haven't shared publicly anywhere else. I started this discussion not as an act of political advocacy or involvement, but in good part to collectively discern the times, to test my thoughts and ideas, and to learn how others, other Anabaptists in particular, are understanding what is going on in power and politics around us right now.

I honestly respect those who, because of conscience, choose to be "a-political" (although I have met very few who truly are 8-)), I'm part-way there myself...but I watch politics like a farmer watches the weather: I'd just as soon not be taken by surprise when a storm comes, especially if a little advanced notice can help me (and my neighbors) prepare. :)
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Bootstrap
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:Honestly, I think we can do it - and it would be a better witness than simply saying that we've given up because we cant play nicely. :)
I agree, but when I try to do this according to my best understanding, I feel like it is triggering "the rancor, high emotions, ad hominem attacks, sniping, and partisan loyalty" in at least a handful of other people, including people I really respect, and the labels they judge me by are often political ones. And they feel like they are just being rational and I'm the one who is doing this.

That's what people in the world around us are surrounded by these days, and I think the Kingdom really needs to be able to speak to that, not only by ignoring the questions other people are concerned with. But I don't feel like I'm succeeding at that here, and that really comes out in some of the discussion in the elitism thread.

So I agree, it's not a good witness. But to play nicely, I think we need some help. Unless we can get some help with that, I think it's better for me to leave than to play the role I'm playing here right now.
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PeterG
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by PeterG »

Bootstrap wrote:I thought this was too good to get lost in its original thread, so I'm reposting it here.
Sudsy wrote:I thought this to be a good article regarding Mennonite involvement in politics called - How Should We Be political ?

http://mennoworld.org/2017/02/13/the-wo ... political/

What do you agree with / disagree with in this article?
This is an excellent article. The five principles Corey lists are fundamentally sound (although it looks like I probably wouldn't apply them exactly the same way he does). I especially appreciate his emphasis on renouncing worldly power and its pursuit.

I am just a little uncomfortable with the formulation of point 2. We should put truth and righteousness before perceived socioeconomic concerns. To be sure, truth and righteousness will lead us to serve the marginalized, and acting in their favor is the right default setting.

"How should we be political?" is really just a subcategory of being in the world without being of it. In a sense there's nothing special about politics; it's just another feature of this world, like business or leisure/recreation/entertainment/art (sorry, couldn't think of a good term for what I'm thinking there). We cannot avoid these things, but it takes incredible grace—Amazing Grace, as it were—to touch them without being corrupted by power, wealth, and pleasure. Some types of engagement with the world cross a line beyond which corruption is inevitable. Sometimes I'm nervous about which side of the line I'm on. When I opined on this political issue, was I speaking the truth, or succumbing to the lures of pride and power? Was eating that doughnut a legitimate enjoyment of the gifts of the Lord, or did it make me a hedonist? What if it was my third doughnut?
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Sudsy
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Re: How should we be political?

Post by Sudsy »

PeterG wrote: "How should we be political?" is really just a subcategory of being in the world without being of it. In a sense there's nothing special about politics; it's just another feature of this world, like business or leisure/recreation/entertainment/art (sorry, couldn't think of a good term for what I'm thinking there). We cannot avoid these things, but it takes incredible grace—Amazing Grace, as it were—to touch them without being corrupted by power, wealth, and pleasure. Some types of engagement with the world cross a line beyond which corruption is inevitable. Sometimes I'm nervous about which side of the line I'm on. When I opined on this political issue, was I speaking the truth, or succumbing to the lures of pride and power? Was eating that doughnut a legitimate enjoyment of the gifts of the Lord, or did it make me a hedonist? What if it was my third doughnut?
Yes, I bolded the part of your post where my apprehension is found. Yesterday, I travelled for an hour each way with three other senior fellows to play in a curling bonspiel. Part way there and most of the way back the conversation got on Mr. Trump. When it first began I withdrew and got out my Kindle to read. On the way home I kept trying to think of how I could enter this conversation to be some 'salt'. If I was asked what my opinion was I was prepared to say I was 'apolitical' and that so far in my life whatever party gets into power I have had a wonderful life here in this country. So, politics just isn't an issue for me. However, this likely would have just been accepted and the conversation would continue by the other 3 guys. If not and I was confronted by a certain issue to have an opinion about, I thought I might then try to give them a Kingdom point of view and was trusting the Holy Spirit to help me best express this. As it turned out they brought me back into the conversation on other areas not political.

I find one of the big areas to watch out for is the area of slander. Most of the conversation about Mr. Trump involved his being slandered or his slandering of others. I find conversations are quite common where folks try to gain group support in their slandering of others. Sadly, this happens often in Christianity. I often need to bite my tongue and sometimes miss in this area and once you start and feel convicted need to openly repent. Back to our conversation in the car, at one point it was all about lying and the one fellow said something like 'my mother always told us kids to always tell the truth as if you don't, a lie will always catch up with you'. I likely could have jumped in there and said something of support.

I'm just saying, if we are to mingle with the unchurched/worldly minded people (which we will if we are a Jesus follower), we need to be constantly aware of our position in this country as visitors. We don't need to get caught up critiquing the other kingdom(s) but we do need to be ambassadors of the Kingdom we come from. So, I don't need to know all the most recent particulars Mr. trump is involved in and basically they are nothing new when it come to man sinning. I find the area of pro sports another tempting area and how to deal with how teams and sports people are idolized. I think if we are keen on being 'salt' we will find ways to converse yet stay unattached to the values the world places on these areas. Our ultimate goal is to see them become citizens of this better Kingdom.
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