President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

[temporal1]

Here's an analysis that helps me understand my feelings about Trump: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

Chicago Tribune.
i avoid reading anything from the CT.
even knowing your personal lib views, i’m surprised you do.

[temporal1]

Boot,

Here’s an honest question: when have you supported a Republican running for office? The burden of proof is on you to prove you aren’t partisan. You consistently always support the Democratic Party line on every candidate.

From that perspective, it’s hard to take you credibly about Trump, especially when 8 years went by without any criticism of Obama, particularly his warmongering policies like drone warfare and assassinations.

I agree with you we shouldn’t just parrot Fox News - but we also shouldn’t be parroting the Huffington Post.

i would add one note to your thoughts, Josh. (maybe 2.)
i recall boot has “tossed an occasional crumb” of recognition to non-Democrats (i have no example in mind.)
more than that, in the months prior to the 2016 election, the ongoing emotional “never Trump” language causes (me) to dismiss what has simply continued, and magnified, post-election.
this, from the entire DNC party, TOP-DOWN. it’s not just some fringe members, it’s the formal party platform, to unseat our sitting president.

this blatant aggression is much more disturbing (to me) than occasional colorful language combined with a dominant personality style.

President Trump is an unapologetic aggressive personality. This does not actually define evil.

i pray folks don’t inadvertantly choose passive-aggressive personalities, which may be pretty to view, but, in the end, can be destructive and unhealthy.

possibly i should have worded this to boot (?) ..
i only intend part of this to be directed to boot, it’s more of a general observation about differences in aggressive-aggressive styles, rather than passive-aggressive styles.
i understand neither from a professional or legal pov. i may be mistaken on all points.

DAVOS, SWITZERLAND / The Sun, a UK News Company
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5427923/d ... eresa-may/
while we have been chatting here, President Trump was working in Switzerland this week.
general reports have been positive to very positive.

[Bootstrap]

What’s the definition of “immoral or coarse”?

Man’s definition, the elite’s definition, or the working class’s definition... or the Bible’s?

Suppose we pick the lowest common denominator of the three? I think spying on underage women in the changing room and bragging that you can get away with it, bragging about being able to touch women anywhere you want and they can't do anything, dozens of charges of sexual harassment, hiring a pornstar to have sex while married then paying her hush money, making contracts you never intend to keep with people who can't afford to sue you, etc. would all qualify as immoral by any of these standards. I could go on ...

But what do you think Trump's moral code is? Which moral principles do you think he has consistently lived by that we can rely on now?

Here’s an honest question: when have you supported a Republican running for office? The burden of proof is on you to prove you aren’t partisan. You consistently always support the Democratic Party line on every candidate.

Again? I answered this question for you once in the Bunny Trail thread, before this election precisely half of the presidents I had voted for were Republican. I think it's rude and irrelevant to demand someone divulge their voting record, that's supposed to be private, but I did that for you once, do I need to repeat it?

But notice what you are doing. Without responding to any of the things said about Trump, you (1) suggest that appeals to basic morality are out of touch with class warfare, and (2) suggest that I'm the wrong kind of person to be taken seriously. You've seen me in liberal Mennonite forums, where people considered me one of the conservatives. I seem to get it from both sides, because I'm not loyal to either.

Is morality suddenly a fringe partisan position held only by Democrats? It never used to be. Let's not turn on each other here, let's discuss the topic. After all, if Christians with different views can't talk with each other, we're going to have a hard time knowing how to respond to what the political world is throwing at us. Partisanship is precisely about dividing over these issues.

[Bootstrap]

from the entire DNC party, TOP-DOWN. it’s not just some fringe members, it’s the formal party platform, to unseat our sitting president.

Actually, Republicans and Democrats both said they had faith in Mueller when he was first appointed, and the investigation is being led by Republicans.

Screen Shot 2018-01-28 at 3.56.58 PM.png (70.5 KiB) Viewed 231 times

I think we should wait for the investigation to finish before rushing to judgement, but consider the things they are investigating. If there were any indications that any president of any party might be doing these things, they would be under investigation. Even now when the president's party controls both houses.

Google "trump russia timeline", for instance, there are lots of good resources on this. I particularly like the one on lawfareblog.com.

[Bootstrap]

Josh, it feels like you take it personally when people criticize Trump. Is that true? If so, why?

[Sudsy]

I think most here would regard Trump's life as not reflective of a born again Christian and someone 'outside the church'. Paul said in 1 Cor 5-

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?

1 Cor 5:12

So, I don't get all this judging on Donald Trump and others not in the church.

[Josh]

Josh, it feels like you take it personally when people criticize Trump. Is that true? If so, why?

I don’t take it personally. I do think there’s a complete lack of perspective that many, many people exist who are decent, reasonable people who voted for Trump, are glad he won, and feel he is representing them well. Many of these people voted for Obama once or twice.

The elitism displayed by those who can’t fathom the above could possibly be true is what disturbs me.

I also do take it personally when Christians (and particularly Anabaptists) want a president who is a cup that is clean on the outside, but don’t seem nearly as concerned with the inside. I’m not really sure why a mass murderer who doesn’t use foul language is somehow preferable, but that does seem be the consensus here.

[Josh]

But what do you think Trump's moral code is? Which moral principles do you think he has consistently lived by that we can rely on now?

Is it possible for anyone to express anything positive about Trump without you thinking of them as less human? You’ll notice I’ve never actually said anything positive about Trump. Yet you’ve basically reduced me to a morally questionable person simply because I won’t jump on the Trump = Satan bandwagon.

Is morality suddenly a fringe partisan position held only by Democrats?

The Democratic position is that murdering babies is moral. I don’t really see either political party as having any moral leg to stand on by the standard by which I measure morality (the New Testament).

It never used to be. Let's not turn on each other here, let's discuss the topic. After all, if Christians with different views can't talk with each other, we're going to have a hard time knowing how to respond to what the political world is throwing at us. Partisanship is precisely about dividing over these issues.

I’m really tired of you accusing me of being partisan and particularly being pro-Trump. I didn’t vote in the last election, and when I was politically active, I helped phonebank for both of Obama’s campaigns and against Prop 8, so if there is any partisan position I’ve held, it’s a left-wing one.

I’m not interested in endlessly repeating left wing talking points about how Trump is essentially the antichrist. And that does divide. I’d rather find ways to build bridges and find things in common with people who are enthusiastic Trump supporters. Are you interested in this, or do you just want to unperson them?

[Bootstrap]

Josh, it feels like you take it personally when people criticize Trump. Is that true? If so, why?

I don’t take it personally. I do think there’s a complete lack of perspective that many, many people exist who are decent, reasonable people who voted for Trump, are glad he won, and feel he is representing them well. Many of these people voted for Obama once or twice.

Absolutely. And some of those people are here. I disagree with them, they disagree with me. I hope we can respect each other.

The elitism displayed by those who can’t fathom the above could possibly be true is what disturbs me.

I definitely understand that this is the case. I know people like that.

I also do take it personally when Christians (and particularly Anabaptists) want a president who is a cup that is clean on the outside, but don’t seem nearly as concerned with the inside. I’m not really sure why a mass murderer who doesn’t use foul language is somehow preferable, but that does seem be the consensus here.

You keep focusing on his foul language, I keep telling you that's not what disturbs me. I thought the concerns I expressed here were very much about the inside of the cup. I don't think you have addressed the things I'm saying in your summaries.

Do you think the inside of his cup is clean? Do you think he is moral? trustworthy? honest? loyal? a unifier? What "inside of the cup" virtues do you see in Donald Trump?

[Josh]

Do you think the inside of his cup is clean? Do you think he is moral? trustworthy? honest? loyal? a unifier? What "inside of the cup" virtues do you see in Donald Trump?

Do I think Donald Trump is a conservative Anabaptist? No, I don’t.

As far as positive things about Trump? Yes, I see some, but I also see positive things in many other leaders in many other settings. I also see negative things.