President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

POLL: What do you think about the Trump presidency so far?

 
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temporal1
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Re: President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by temporal1 »

ohio jones wrote:
Dan Z wrote:People are the crowing jewel of God's Creation...
Yes, but some people crow longer and louder than others. In that respect, the president seems to be a real gem. ;)
“seems” being the operative word.
whatever can be magnified, is, whereas, others have enjoyed benefit of glossing-over, ignoring, denying, etc.

none of these politicians, or media, are without sins. in multiples.
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Dan Z
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Re: President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Dan Z »

Wade wrote:Thank you Dan. Appreciate the time you took to answer "honestly." ;)
And I honestly appreciated your question Wade - thinking about Kingdom boundaries is important.
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temporal1
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Re: President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by temporal1 »

so far, 25 voting, this poll is very close between the 3 parts, positive, negative, neutral.
jcm once posted something about how our opinions are directly affected by what we read.
i believe that’s the case. sometimes, to a shocking extent.
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I have certain questions about the "ethical norms" of people who think, for example, that abortion is OK. Who exactly decides what is ethical?
Perhaps the 20+ women who say Trump sexually abused them, doing some of the things he bragged that he could get away with in the Access Hollywood tapes? Take any of the sexual wrongdoing shown or alleged of Bill Clinton, and ask if Donald Trump hasn't done the same thing in spades. And he said, in his own voice, that he did those things, bragging of it. Here's what he wrote in Think Big:
Donald Trump wrote:The women I have dated over the years could have any man they want; they are the top models and the most beautiful women in the world. I have been able to date (screw) them all because I have something that many men do not have. I don’t know what it is but women have always liked it. … Beautiful, famous, successful, married—I’ve had them all, secretly, the world’s biggest names.
Remember when Trump made this boast?
Donald Trump wrote:I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.
He meant it. Can you imagine what would happened to George Bush or Barack Obama if they were doing this kind of thing? When Clinton was caught, this endangered his presidency and led to impeachment hearings. But with Trump, it's all just part of the background, we know that he is a deeply immoral man, but it doesn't seem to bother people any more. It's all factored in. There are so many scandals that it all becomes part of the background noise. It's what we expect of him.

Moral leadership is no longer expected. And that's having a very corrosive effect on the presidency and American politics.

So is this really the right Christian response?
Who exactly decides what is ethical?
I don't think so. I think there is clear right and wrong on many issues, and I think Donald Trump is on the wrong side of many obvious moral lines. I have mentioned just one of them here.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Bootstrap »

Wade wrote:I'm curious if someone could explain if it is appropriate for Christians to critique government leaders or their decisions?

Which Kingdom should we be drawing people's attention too?
That's the reason that I haven't said much about Donald Trump on this forum, and I've said almost nothing on Facebook or other forums.

But I see some people who say they are conservative Anabaptists who seem to be strongly on his team on their Facebook accounts. Not you, Wade, I think you are probably consistent on this. But I am concerned when not only Evangelicals, but also some Mennonites and Anabaptists are treating him as a man we should look up to. And I am even more concerned at the level of anger and hostility I have seen directed toward people who criticize him - even by some people who consider themselves Two Kingdom Christians.
Robert wrote:I also noticed that the survey did not use his title, or a Mr. I wonder if the creator of the poll is holding some latent hostility or disrespect towards our current President, like part of the "he is not my president" group. :o
I know this was directed to Dan, but let me weigh in on my own usage.

That's a form of address to be used when talking to the president. I don't think it is normally expected when speaking about the president, and news sources don't typically say 'President Trump' whenever they refer to him. I don't generally use the title when speaking about any president, and a few quick searches make me think other people on MN don't either, including people who have said we should do this. Let me be clear: to the extent that any political figure in That Other Kingdom is my president, Donald Trump is. No more, no less.

At any rate, I hope this doesn't descend into nitpicking about each other. I'd rather discuss the topic itself.

This is my last post for today.
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Dan Z
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Re: President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Dan Z »

I've got no special insight here - but here's my opinion on the first year of the Trump presidency:

First, I want to acknowledge that President Trump wants to do a good job, and is using the tools and instincts he has used his whole life to try to succeed as president. And, for my part, I root for him to do a good job - for the sake of us all. A few positive results worth noting so far:
  • 1) He has advanced and promoted a legislatively pro-life agenda, including rescinding support for organizations that provide or promote abortion both internally and abroad.

    2) Without spending a dime on the big wall, Trump's tough talk on illegal immigration as contributed to about a 40% decrease year-over-year in illegal border crossings.

    3) In a foreign policy sense, a combination of the president's America First bent, his rhetorically direct and free-wheeling style, and his deliberate unpredictability, have rattled the cages of some US adversaries and potentially moved them in an advantageous direction of the US - or at least clipped their wings. (i.e. in the past some players, like North Korea or Hamas have taken liberties by banking on the desire for stability and diplomatic placation within the international community. Trump has injected some angst and unpredictability into the equation). One example has been the increased focus on N. Korea, and an increased drive by S. Korea to be the "good cop" and reach out unilaterally to the North

    4) In conservative fashion, he has a small government bent, and has worked at decreasing government bureaucracy and over-reach. Often this is a good thing, especially in the wake of the eight-year tenure of a liberal president.
I'll drop the other shoe a bit later when I've got time. :)
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by ken_sylvania »

Bootstrap wrote:
Robert wrote:I also noticed that the survey did not use his title, or a Mr. I wonder if the creator of the poll is holding some latent hostility or disrespect towards our current President, like part of the "he is not my president" group. :o
I know this was directed to Dan, but let me weigh in on my own usage.

That's a form of address to be used when talking to the president. I don't think it is normally expected when speaking about the president, and news sources don't typically say 'President Trump' whenever they refer to him. I don't generally use the title when speaking about any president, and a few quick searches make me think other people on MN don't either, including people who have said we should do this. Let me be clear: to the extent that any political figure in That Other Kingdom is my president, Donald Trump is. No more, no less.
The New York Times had an interesting piece on this awhile ago. In accordance with their style guide, the sitting president is referred to as "President (Bush, Obama, Trump, etc.)" on first reference, and "Mr. (Bush, Obama, Trump, etc.)" thereafter. According to the NYT article, most other news organizations drop the "Mr." after the first reference. For instance, a review of a couple CNN articles suggests that CNN uses "President Trump" for the first reference and "Trump" thereafter.
I don't remember that biblical references to kings, governors, etc. are all preceded by an honorific, so I have to conclude that the analysis of whether such use is necessary is going to be based in large part on culture.
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Dan Z
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Dan Z »

ken_sylvania wrote:The New York Times had an interesting piece on this awhile ago. In accordance with their style guide, the sitting president is referred to as "President (Bush, Obama, Trump, etc.)" on first reference, and "Mr. (Bush, Obama, Trump, etc.)" thereafter. According to the NYT article, most other news organizations drop the "Mr." after the first reference. For instance, a review of a couple CNN articles suggests that CNN uses "President Trump" for the first reference and "Trump" thereafter.
I don't remember that biblical references to kings, governors, etc. are all preceded by an honorific, so I have to conclude that the analysis of whether such use is necessary is going to be based in large part on culture.
Interesting insights Ken - we all have our sensibilities, but the Times approach seems appropriate to me.

I do think it depends on personal culture a lot. As a child growing up we used honorific titles quite a bit - adults were Mr. or Mrs. or if they were closer to the family Aunt & Uncle (regardless of blood relationship). Doctors were called DR. and pastors were called Pastor, etc. I think the culture is moving in an informal direction since then, however down south the culture is still more formal - and Mam and Sir are still common.

In my experience, Mennonites are not to prone to honorifics - perhaps because titles seem prideful and hierarchical within a brotherhood where servant-hood is stressed. Pastors usually are addressed just by their first name for example.
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Robert
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Re: President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Robert »

Dan Z wrote: Oh friend, don't read anything into my lack of use of the title "President" - I was't trying to send a message, but was mainly trying to save length in the development of the poll by omitting the repeated use of that nine letter word.
I can easily understand this. When President Obama was in office and I was discussing him, I tried very hard to use his title. This forced me to respect the man, while I largely disagreed with his policies. As Christians, we are called to view others as more important then ourselves. In discussions of worldly leaders, I think it is important that we do not mentally minimize them so they become the "they" and we are the holier then thou "we."

I actually think if I met both men, I would make myself show President Obama a little more respect since I do disagree with him more. This would be for me more than for him.

One thing I can say of late is that the presidents have been very polarizing figures. The country does not seem to elect boring middle of the road people any more. I think this say a lot about the country, not the ones who have been elected.

I did vote, but could not bring myself to vote for either Mr Trump or Mrs./Ms Clinton. I find myself just sitting back and choosing to find the positive, as I did while President Obama was in office.

No, I will not let a newspaper to decide how I address another person. Yes, it can be a hassle to always add the title. I need to do this as much for myself as for the other person. Not everyone needs to do this, but I find it helpful to also remind me that they are not the King of Kings, but just an elected officer of a worldly kingdom. They too, shall pass.
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Re: President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Josh »

I’m still having trouble seeing how anyone who promotes abortion (like past Democratic presidents) can be seen as moral or ethical even if they do say polite things and aren’t caught using foul language.

Of course, past presidents were no different than Trump. LBJ was exceedingly foul and JFK was a notorious womaniser. Obama presided over legalising and promoting same sex marriage. These things seem unethical and immoral to me.
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