President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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POLL: What do you think about the Trump presidency so far?

 
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Dan Z
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President Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Dan Z »

Hi friends,

Mennonet is fairly a-political these days. However, I'm curious how the current MennoNet community is reacting to the Trump presidency...so I thought I'd create a poll.

Please pick the perspective closest to where you are (even if you are only a casual observer) .

You can elaborate on your decision below...however it would be nice if we could have this discussion not primarily to convince anyone for or against the president, but rather to respectfully help others understand our reasons for our response to Trump's presidency as you see it.
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lesterb
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by lesterb »

As a Canadian I shouldn't vote, perhaps. But at the very beginning, I leaned pro-Trump in-spite of his horrific moral record. I suspect that the Clintons are even worse, and certainly more hypocritical about it. When you look at things like abortion and separation of church and state, etc., Trump at least pays lip service to old fashioned values.

But I think he's doing a lot of damage as well, politically. And I've pretty well given up on the hope that he was just putting on a facade of stupidity to mask a brilliant plan behind the scenes. I think all presidents have an agenda, and I still think it was the grace of God that held back the Clinton agenda another four years. But I think by now that Trump is mostly a placeholder until the hidden powers get someone in place that is more palatable.

Mostly gut feelings. Not a lot of proof. But I've been around the block a few times and that's what it looks like to me.

Edited to add: Like a good Mennonite, I voted center of the road. :)
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PeterG
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by PeterG »

Dan Z wrote:Mennonet is fairly a-political these days.
And I hope it stays this way. :)

MennoNet's a-politicism mirrors what I've seen among conservative Anabaptists in the last year and a half. My association with conservative Mennonites goes back to the early 90s, and throughout the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations the Mennonites I've known could generally be counted on to cheer for the red team. This ended abruptly during the 2016 campaign (without, thankfully, a reactionary swing towards cheering for the blue team). I hope we've learned our lesson once and for all that the political realm belongs to the kingdom of this world.
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Hats Off »

As a Canadian, I am probably not qualified to answer. If I disregard Trump and Clinton, and look to what the parties seem to stand for, the Democrats have for some time now felt more comfortable to me. The conservative religious flavour of the Republicans does not sit well at all with me. The NRA and other right wing organizations make me very uncomfortable. Reflecting only on Trump and Clinton, I would not know how to answer. What I see of Trump scares me; what I don't see of Clinton scares me. I am concerned about Trumps views on trade; will he abolish NAFTA? I can't be comfortable with his views on immigration. I hope his handlers keep fairly tight control on him and his "big button."
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mike
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by mike »

PeterG wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Mennonet is fairly a-political these days.
And I hope it stays this way. :)

MennoNet's a-politicism mirrors what I've seen among conservative Anabaptists in the last year and a half. My association with conservative Mennonites goes back to the early 90s, and throughout the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations the Mennonites I've known could generally be counted on to cheer for the red team. This ended abruptly during the 2016 campaign (without, thankfully, a reactionary swing towards cheering for the blue team). I hope we've learned our lesson once and for all that the political realm belongs to the kingdom of this world.
This is heartening. Good to hear.
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Dan Z
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Dan Z »

mike wrote:
PeterG wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Mennonet is fairly a-political these days.
And I hope it stays this way. :)

MennoNet's a-politicism mirrors what I've seen among conservative Anabaptists in the last year and a half. My association with conservative Mennonites goes back to the early 90s, and throughout the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations the Mennonites I've known could generally be counted on to cheer for the red team. This ended abruptly during the 2016 campaign (without, thankfully, a reactionary swing towards cheering for the blue team). I hope we've learned our lesson once and for all that the political realm belongs to the kingdom of this world.
This is heartening. Good to hear.
I'll echo that as well...if this is true it is a good thing IMO - and may help insulate Conservative Anabaptism from the assimilating power of political involvement (and the enticing allure of political power).

For the last few decades it felt like the tide was moving in the other direction in the CM circles...toward greater political involvement - Clinton's personal morality upset folks and got their hackles up, Bush Jr's compassionate conservatism and faith seemed to be someone who resonated within the CM community (his campaign even reached out to Mennonite communities like Holmes and Lancaster counties), and Obama and the social liberalism that he represented got CM folks stirred up and threatened once again.

So Peter, why do you think the CM community is stepping back a bit at this point? Is it a reaction to Trump (and his persona/morality that frankly seems antithetical to much of CM culture)...or is a complacency because that things are back in order with a conservative government in charge? Or has there been some renewed acceptance of two-kingdom thinking?
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Dan Z
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Dan Z »

I would add that among those who have left Conservative Anabaptism (while remaining in Red Sate, anti-establishment conservatism) - at least those on my Facebook feed - there doesn't seem to be much of a diminished zeal in their political passion. Oh...and those on the Left (most who never were conservative in the first place) seem more politically wound up than ever as far as I can tell.

Anyway...I'll share some of my own thoughts on Trump soon.
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PeterG
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by PeterG »

Dan Z wrote:
mike wrote:This is heartening. Good to hear.
I'll echo that as well...if this is true it is a good thing IMO - and may help insulate Conservative Anabaptism from the assimilating power of political involvement (and the enticing allure of political power).

To be clear, I speak only out of my own limited observations. I'm not tuned in to everything everywhere.
Dan Z wrote:So Peter, why do you think the CM community is stepping back a bit at this point? Is it a reaction to Trump (and his persona/morality that frankly seems antithetical to much of CM culture)...or is a complacency because that things are back in order with a conservative government in charge? Or has there been some renewed acceptance of two-kingdom thinking?
I think it's a reaction to Trump. I don't think it's a complacent response to Republican control of the White House because, as you noted, Mennonites did not respond to Bush this way. I just hope it sticks; the test will come if/when Pence or someone like him replaces Trump as the leading Republican figure. (Or the leading Democratic figure, for that matter. I don't know why not, if Donald Trump can lure evangelicals into an presidency-winning coalition.)

Actually, there's an interesting thought—what would American evangelicals and conservative Catholics do with a charismatic politician who is strongly pro-life, advocates tolerance for both gay marriage and religious convictions against gay marriage, and otherwise aligns with the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party? People like this do exist...
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Robert
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Robert »

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... mp/550247/
Among African Americans and Hispanics, reactions to Trump depend more on gender than age or education. In every age group, and at every level of education, about twice as many African American men as women gave Trump positive marks. In all, 23 percent of black men approved of Trump’s performance versus 11 percent of black women. “The outlier here isn’t [black] men … it’s [black] women, where you have near-universal disapproval of Trump,” said Cornell Belcher, a Democratic pollster who studies African American voters. Still, black men are one of the few groups for which Trump’s 2017 average approval rating significantly exceeds his 2016 vote share.
Many things could change between now and November’s election—much less 2020. But these detailed soundings show how the gales of resistance Trump has fueled are reshaping the electoral landscape. Whether by age, gender, race, or education, Trump is deepening almost every social and political division that existed before him—with unpredictable consequences for the parties and for the country itself.
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Re: Trump: A MennoNet Poll

Post by Bootstrap »

Trump's battering of norms is one of the most striking characteristics of his presidency, and one of the things he campaigned on. That includes ethical norms. Sometimes he even mocks ethical and democratic norms, bragging about what he can get away with.

And that can include a kind of bullying that concerns me.

Benjamin Wittes put it this way:
Benjamin Wittes wrote:Trump's speeches reflect a degree of grandiosity, narcissicm, impulsivity, lack of self command, and instinct to attack political opponents that are unusual even within the end-of-the-bell-curve emotional zone reserved for politicians. This is a highly unusual man, one with a pronounced instinct to threaten and verbally attack those who disagree with him or whom he just dislikes. He goes after foreign countries, news reporters, opponents, and anyone else who criticizes him.
This really came out when Donald Trump said that the "saddest thing" is that he cannot use the FBI and the Justice Department to call up an investigation of a political opponent, something he "would love to be doing":
Donald Trump wrote:But you know, the saddest thing is, because I am the President of the United States, I am not supposed to be involved with the Justice Department. I’m not supposed to be involved with the FBI. I’m not supposed to be doing the kind of things I would love to be doing and I am very frustrated by it. I look at what’s happening with the Justice Department, why aren’t they going after Hillary Clinton with her emails and with her dossier, and the kind of money… I don’t know, is it possible that they paid $12.4 million for the dossier…which is total phony, fake, fraud and how is it used? It’s very discouraging to me. I’ll be honest, I’m very unhappy with it, that the Justice Department isn’t going…maybe they are but you know as President, and I think you understand this, as a President you’re not supposed to be involved in that process. But hopefully they are doing something and at some point, maybe we are going to all have it out (emphasis added).
And he is also threatening to sue political opponents in private lawsuits. What's wrong with that? This ...
Bob Bauer wrote:What Trump fails to appreciate--what he seemingly will not accept--is that the presidency requires him to subordinate his personal issues, impulses and interests to his public role. It is not open to him as president to use the legal process, even if privately funded, to settle political or personal scores. This is not a question of etiquette or best practice, but of what minimally responsible and ethical conduct in office requires.
Battering ethical and democratic norms is not a good thing.

P.S. This is my last post for at least today.
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