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Dan Z wrote:

Neto wrote:...But I do still think that there may be certain cases where an open identification with a political concern (through some type of public display of opposition or solidarity) may be a proper way of demonstrating compassion for the persons who are victims in that scenario. I do think, however, that compassion is better demonstrated on a personal level, generally out of view of the public sphere.

Well said...we are on the same page here.

As I said earlier, it seems to me that there are occasionally times when an egregious systematic injustice would compel us, as Christians, to express our individual and collective concern to political powers - especially in cases where the injustice is perpetrated against the voiceless. Abortion, genocide, war crimes against civilians, exploitation or violence against the poor or strangers in our midst are some that come to mind.

I chose 2, but then switched my vote. The real difficulty with attempting to be a prophetic witness speaking "truth to power" is in the picking and choosing the injustices we would speak about. Both Josh and I have witnessed this on another forum recently where Ken miller and Timo Miller have been brutally vilified by those who consider themselves "victims" or advocated tor the "voiceless".

I am coming to believe more and more that the Christian's only task is a one-on-one task an our best hope at changing "the system" is to call individuals to repentance and make disciples of them.

Wayne in Maine wrote:I am coming to believe more and more that the Christian's only task is a one-on-one task an our best hope at changing "the system" is to call individuals to repentance and make disciples of them.

I agree. Think of Elijah who wrung his hands over there being nobody else to oppose Ahab, when there were 7,000 others in reality. We know of heroes such as Corrie ten Boom and many others who made it their mission to oppose evil governments by helping one soul at a time. Surely there are thousands more who never received recognition and who accomplished much more than they would have by becoming mired in the compromising world of lobbying, protesting, and political power.

mike wrote:

Wayne in Maine wrote:I am coming to believe more and more that the Christian's only task is a one-on-one task an our best hope at changing "the system" is to call individuals to repentance and make disciples of them.

I agree. Think of Elijah who wrung his hands over there being nobody else to oppose Ahab, when there were 7,000 others in reality. We know of heroes such as Corrie ten Boom and many others who made it their mission to oppose evil governments by helping one soul at a time. Surely there are thousands more who never received recognition and who accomplished much more than they would have by becoming mired in the compromising world of lobbying, protesting, and political power.

Pretty much exactly where I am at. We call and confront individuals. Like John confronted Herod and Paul confronted King Agrippa. They didn't lecture them on policy/government structure...or how to be more "just" government officials duly appointed and ordained by God.

We could call it speaking truth to people rather than the nebulous "speaking truth to power."

I honestly appreciate what you fellows are saying...I've been a contentious abstainer from voting my entire life, and this is where I have tried to live personally and practically throughout the years.

• If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
  If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
  If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
  If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
  etc.

So...for all practical purposes, I am a #1 (OK - I did write a letter to Prez Bush Sr. once, along with some members of our church, imploring him to reconsider starting a war in Iraq).

Yet, I'm hesitant to release the possibility that we might, at times, be called to "speak prophetically" to those who hold political power - particularly in concert with other like-minded brethren. Let me try to explain a few of my reasons why in my next post...

Dan Z wrote:

• If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
  If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
  If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
  If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
  etc.

Excellent - I'm with you so far.

Dan Z wrote:I honestly appreciate what you fellows are saying...I've been a contentious abstainer from voting my entire life, and this is where I have tried to live personally and practically throughout the years.

• If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
  If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
  If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
  If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
  etc.

So...for all practical purposes, I am a #1 (OK - I did write a letter to Prez Bush Sr. once, along with some members of our church, imploring him to reconsider starting a war in Iraq).

Yet, I'm hesitant to release the possibility that we might, at times, be called to "speak prophetically" to those who hold political power - particularly in concert with other like-minded brethren. Let me try to explain a few of my reasons why in my next post...

...a contentious abstainer... what form does that take?

That list of things to do looks suspiciously like the same talking points I hear from the left wing. And they aren't even close to biblical commandments, either. The Bible never addresses "racism and cultural misunderstanding" as the gravest sin in the world, nor does it levy some duty to help make life easier to people who decide not to get married before having kids. Widows and orphans, yes, but not children who have two parents who are alive and well.

Likewise the coded message in the last paragraph to push for gun control.

Pardon my cynicism but the left wing including their occupying force inside Christianity has really showed its true colours as of late. I'm tired of them thinking they have a platform to give marching orders. Once they are busy protesting for the release of Ken Miller we can discuss some of their talking points.

silentreader wrote:

Dan Z wrote:I honestly appreciate what you fellows are saying...I've been a contentious abstainer from voting my entire life, and this is where I have tried to live personally and practically throughout the years.

• If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
  If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
  If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
  If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
  etc.

So...for all practical purposes, I am a #1 (OK - I did write a letter to Prez Bush Sr. once, along with some members of our church, imploring him to reconsider starting a war in Iraq).

Yet, I'm hesitant to release the possibility that we might, at times, be called to "speak prophetically" to those who hold political power - particularly in concert with other like-minded brethren. Let me try to explain a few of my reasons why in my next post...

...a contentious abstainer... what form does that take?

Does not contentious objector sound a bit protesting? Abstainer sounds a bit more staying away from something in a non-resistant form. Or that is what it sounded like to me anyway...

I think it's a joke since the proper term is "conscientious objector".