POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Which statement most closely represents your views on Christian political involvement?

 
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Josh
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Josh »

Dan Z wrote:Actually, it's not a joke Josh. I chose the words "conscientious abstainer" quite deliberately. "Conscientious" meaning my non-voting is driven by conscience or conviction, and "Abstainer" meaning choosing not to participate in the process. I do not morally "object" to voting per se, so the word "objector" didn't seem to fit, but simply choose not to participate as a matter of conscience.

Silentreader - for me, being a "conscientious abstainer" means deliberately not voting, contributing to political parties or candidates , or volunteering in support of a candidate or election. Hope that helps.
That makes sense to me, but I thought the joke was with the person who typed "contentious objector". Although sometimes it's okay to be contentious. :lol:
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Josh
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Josh »

PeterG wrote:What would you who chose #1 have to say about abortion? Would you say that abortion is wrong? Would you say that it ought to be illegal? Would your words change depending on whether or not your listener has a position in government? These are not rhetorical questions; I am sincerely interested to see your responses.
Of course abortion is wrong, but going back to scripture, very little time is spent talking about abortion. There is a lot of time spent talking about why Christians shouldn't engage in fornication and adultery, which, to me, seem to be the cause of abortions. (I know some people in stable, happy marriages get abortions, but most abortions are not that.)

If I want to understand why some people are resorting to murder, this passage seems to help me understand that.
Where do the conflicts and where do the quarrels among you come from? Is it not from this, from your passions that battle inside you? You desire and you do not have; you murder and envy and you cannot obtain; you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask; you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly, so you can spend it on your passions.
Adulterers, do you not know that friendship with the world means hostility toward God? So whoever decides to be the world’s friend makes himself God’s enemy.
So if I see murder, envying, quarrels, and fighting, I can suspect that there are passions battling inside the murderer. It seems the best place to start is sharing the good news of Jesus so that man and women can learn they don't need to be slaves to their passions, and so that the new birth can change their desire to do all those bad things.
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Dan Z
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Actually, it's not a joke Josh. I chose the words "conscientious abstainer" quite deliberately. "Conscientious" meaning my non-voting is driven by conscience or conviction, and "Abstainer" meaning choosing not to participate in the process. I do not morally "object" to voting per se, so the word "objector" didn't seem to fit, but simply choose not to participate as a matter of conscience.

Silentreader - for me, being a "conscientious abstainer" means deliberately not voting, contributing to political parties or candidates , or volunteering in support of a candidate or election. Hope that helps.
That makes sense to me, but I thought the joke was with the person who typed "contentious objector". Although sometimes it's okay to be contentious. :lol:
:up:
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Dan Z
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote:
PeterG wrote:"Aren't even close to biblical commandments"? :?:

If those are leftist talking points, then good for the leftists, and may still more truth displace their errors. Truth isn't guilty by association.
Where is the biblical commandment to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding? And what justifies making it #1?

Someone who identifies as Mennonite and Christian recently said she feels that "sin" means racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, Islamaphobia, or anything else that oppresses the marginalised (where marginalised = basically not white, male, Christian, and straight).

I have a really difficult time reconciling this worldview with scripture or historic Christian practice.
I find it difficult too...but you're articulating a leftist political ideology here and then reacting to it as un-christian, rather than what I would consider "a Christ-centered perspective." I think that was also the basis of your complaint about the list I wrote (which included "racism and abortion" - which you perhaps felt were based on leftist ideology). In your earlier post you did something similar when you basically said said that the reason you didn't think "speaking prophetically" was right was because that's what the (Christian) left is doing.
josh wrote:I picked 1. I would have picked 2, but "speaking prophetically" right now means attending BLM rallies, wearing a safety pin, and talking a lot about how bad Trump is.

The reason I doubt this is for the Christian is simply because it is identical to what half of the world does with no basis in nonresistance, belief in God, or following Jesus.
For the sake of this conversation, let's try to set aside political ideology and labeling aside as best we can. Instead, let's work under the assumption that 1) we are all brethren seeing to follow our convictions as followers of Jesus, and 2) that there are moral conclusions that come from the teachings and example of Christ that don't fit neatly into political ideology on the left or right (e.g. I value the sanctity of life as God-given, thus I end up being against abortion and euthanasia - right-wing causes - but also against war and the death penalty - leftist causes.)

In fact, one of the main arguments for abstention from voting is to preserve independence of thought and insulate us from conforming our minds to ideologies that come from somewhere other than the teachings and example of Jesus and his apostles.

I'd be happy to share why I think Jesus cares about racist attitudes or abortion - but that's not where we're going with this thread.

Now...I need to work on stating why I think Christians should sometimes "speak prophetically" to those in power...
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Josh
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Josh »

I think it's useful to look at what Christians who've actually tried to "speak prophetically" have done. It seems the impulse to do so stems not from a desire to actually be a good Christian witness, but rather to find an excuse to cloak one's desire for a particular political affiliation in religious garb.

Nonetheless, I will be glad to continue this discussion without labels, but first we might need to define some terms first, such as "racism". According to a lot of people, I am inherently racist if I am not willing to lend full-throated support to Black Lives Matter, and if I use my nonresistance or pacifism as a reason to avoid such movements, I am simply asserting my white privilege and am unable to understand that nonresistance is a luxury only white people can have.

With that definition, it's hard for me to agree that the #1 task of the Christian is to agitate against racism. I think we have higher callings than that.
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by silentreader »

Dan Z wrote:
Wade wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Does not contentious objector sound a bit protesting? Abstainer sounds a bit more staying away from something in a non-resistant form. Or that is what it sounded like to me anyway...
Josh wrote:I think it's a joke since the proper term is "conscientious objector".
Actually, it's not a joke Josh. I chose the words "conscientious abstainer" quite deliberately. "Conscientious" meaning my non-voting is driven by conscience or conviction, and "Abstainer" meaning I choose to abstain, that is not participate in the voting process. I do not morally "object" to voting per se, so the word "objector" didn't seem to fit, but simply choose not to participate as a matter of conscience.

Silentreader - for me, being a "conscientious abstainer" means deliberately not voting, contributing to political parties or candidates, or volunteering in support of a candidate or election. Hope that helps.
I expected it was something like that, but your probably accidental use of 'contentious' rather than 'conscientious' in your original post threw me.
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Dan Z
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote:I think it's useful to look at what Christians who've actually tried to "speak prophetically" have done. It seems the impulse to do so stems not from a desire to actually be a good Christian witness, but rather to find an excuse to cloak one's desire for a particular political affiliation in religious garb.
I agree Josh...and as one who lived through both the "moral majority" years as well as "sojourner" movement, I think your concern is valid - however, with examples of political excess on both the left and right. The danger, in my mind, is when Christians and/or the Church attempt to advance the goals Kingdom of God by co-opting the coercive power of the state. But I don't think the "prophetic voice" does that - at least that's not the Biblical example.

When you look at the "prophetic voice" in both the Old and New Testaments, the goal is not to userp or claim political power, nor is it to "tell the government how to govern" (to quote Mike).
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PeterG
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PeterG »

Dan Z wrote:I agree Josh...and as one who lived through both the "moral majority" years as well as "sojourner" movement, I think your concern is valid - however, with examples of political excess on both the left and right. The danger, in my mind, is when Christians and/or the Church attempt to advance the goals Kingdom of God by co-opting the coercive power of the state. But I don't think the "prophetic voice" does that - at least that's not the Biblical example.

When you look at the "prophetic voice" in both the Old and New Testaments, the goal is not to userp or claim political power, nor is it to "tell the government how to govern" (to quote Mike).
Exactly. The church's proper course of action is defined not in opposition to the world, but in conformity to Christ and the Scriptures.
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Dan Z wrote:
Josh wrote:I think it's useful to look at what Christians who've actually tried to "speak prophetically" have done. It seems the impulse to do so stems not from a desire to actually be a good Christian witness, but rather to find an excuse to cloak one's desire for a particular political affiliation in religious garb.
I agree Josh...and as one who lived through both the "moral majority" years as well as "sojourner" movement, I think your concern is valid - however, with examples of political excess on both the left and right. The danger, in my mind, is when Christians and/or the Church attempt to advance the goals Kingdom of God by co-opting the coercive power of the state. But I don't think the "prophetic voice" does that - at least that's not the Biblical example.

When you look at the "prophetic voice" in both the Old and New Testaments, the goal is not to userp or claim political power, nor is it to "tell the government how to govern" (to quote Mike).
Dan: Using the most recent election as an example, what do you think the prophetic voice should have been (or should be) saying?
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Bootstrap »

PeterG wrote:Exactly. The church's proper course of action is defined not in opposition to the world, but in conformity to Christ and the Scriptures.
I agree. And sometimes it's helpful to adopt the language of the Scriptures if you want to think along the same lines.

If you can't think about right versus wrong without using the terms "leftist", "right-wing", "conservative", and "liberal", then you have adopted a modern political world view as your primary way of thinking about right and wrong. If you can't distinguish truth from falsehood without using the terms "leftist", "right-wing", "conservative", and "liberal", then you have adopted a modern political world view as your primary way of thinking about truth.
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