POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

Which statement most closely represents your views on Christian political involvement?

 
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I am coming to believe more and more that the Christian's only task is a one-on-one task an our best hope at changing "the system" is to call individuals to repentance and make disciples of them.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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joshuabgood
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by joshuabgood »

mike wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
  • If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
    If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
    If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
    If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
    etc.
Excellent - I'm with you so far.
I am with you so far also. Looks like #1 to me...
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Neto
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Neto »

Dan Z wrote:
  • If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
    If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
    If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
    If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
    etc.
So...for all practical purposes, I am a #1 (OK - I did write a letter to Prez Bush Sr. once, along with some members of our church, imploring him to reconsider starting a war in Iraq).
How do you walk in the shoes of people of other ethnicities w/o sometimes walking with them in their appeals for justice?

Some people are too old to legally adopt, but you can be an "adopted grandparent", or visit children at an orphanage (especially in certain countries.) = volunteering

Helping the poor learn marketable skills = volunteering

Taking in a refugee family = volunteering

<Looks like # 2 to me.>
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PeterG
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PeterG »

Dan Z wrote:I honestly appreciate what you fellows are saying...I've been a contentious abstainer from voting my entire life, and this is where I have tried to live personally and practically throughout the years.
  • If you want to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding - befriend people of different ethnicities, empathize, walk in their shoes, expose your children to appreciate the richness of cultural diversity.
    If you want to stop abortion - adopt a child, provide for an unwed mother, or volunteer and support a crisis pregnancy center, teach the value of sexual morality, help someone in over their head care for their children.
    If you want to stand against poverty - give what you have to those in need, create jobs, help people learn how to work, befriend the poor and really get to know their struggles.
    If you want to stand against war - register as a CO, take in a refugee family, become resolute in your commitment to do no violence, eschew weapons of war, teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies.
    etc.
So...for all practical purposes, I am a #1 (OK - I did write a letter to Prez Bush Sr. once, along with some members of our church, imploring him to reconsider starting a war in Iraq).

Yet, I'm hesitant to release the possibility that we might, at times, be called to "speak prophetically" to those who hold political power - particularly in concert with other like-minded brethren.
This expresses my point of view very well.

I suppose it's understandable that talk of "speaking prophetically" would have leftish connotations for many and consequently provoke a reaction, but there is a baby in that bathwater. Most of what passes for this kind of "prophecy" is activism that I want nothing to do with. But the excesses, follies, heresies, and sins of so many "prophets" do not absolve us of our responsibility to speak the truth (or, if you'd rather, to preach repentance and the nearness of God's kingdom), or its applicability to all men regardless of their positions.

What would you who chose #1 have to say about abortion? Would you say that abortion is wrong? Would you say that it ought to be illegal? Would your words change depending on whether or not your listener has a position in government? These are not rhetorical questions; I am sincerely interested to see your responses.
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PeterG
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PeterG »

Dan Z wrote:...teach the value of sexual morality...give what you have to those in need...become resolute in your commitment to do no violence...teach your children to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies
Josh wrote:That list of things to do looks suspiciously like the same talking points I hear from the left wing. And they aren't even close to biblical commandments, either.
"Aren't even close to biblical commandments"? :?:

If those are leftist talking points, then good for the leftists, and may still more truth displace their errors. Truth isn't guilty by association.
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PeterG
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PeterG »

One more thing before I retire from my prattling for the night.

As I see it, "recognizing that worldly power & coercion are inherently at odds with the goals & methods of the Kingdom of God" is itself an act of "speak[ing] prophetically to power." How can it be otherwise?
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joshuabgood
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by joshuabgood »

What would you who chose #1 have to say about abortion? Would you say that abortion is wrong? Would you say that it ought to be illegal? Would your words change depending on whether or not your listener has a position in government? These are not rhetorical questions; I am sincerely interested to see your responses.
I'll have a go:

1). Yes abortion is wrong.

2). Abortion is illegal in our Kingdom already. We should call people to join our Kingdom. We waste our time trying to use political action to turn the kingdoms of this world into the Kingdom of God. And we often as Christians do damage to our witness when we (as Claiborne says) mix ice cream and manure - see those who voted for Trump or for Hillary in the last go round.Not only are the two kingdoms separate, they categorically oppose each other foundationally. Always. Before Abortion we were killing American Indians. Before that we were enslaving Africans. There is always somebody on the wrong side of the guns of the kingdoms of this world.

3).No. We should not be a "respecter of persons" or treat those with fancy clothes any differently.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by ken_sylvania »

PeterG wrote: What would you who chose #1 have to say about abortion? Would you say that abortion is wrong? Would you say that it ought to be illegal? Would your words change depending on whether or not your listener has a position in government? These are not rhetorical questions; I am sincerely interested to see your responses.
In general I equate abortion with murder. It's morally wrong and I am of the opinion that society would be better off if it were illegal. I don't care whether or not my listener has a position in government.
Because I do not believe that Christians should be utilizing government power to try to force people to do right, my energies will be focused on doing what I can personally to counter this evil. Some ways this might play out would be (a) if I have employees, try to ensure that they are being paid a high enough wage that they can support a family; (b) maintain a high regard for life and communicate that to others when appropriate in conversation; (c) provide support and encouragement to a neighbor or other individual I am well acquainted with if I become aware they are struggling with this issue; (d) distribute literature and preach publicly the Word of God as it relates to the sanctity of human life.
I see abortion as a small part of a bigger problem. The desire for abortions stems in general from a departure from God's way of life. Live-in relationships, fractured homes, and immoral living, with a corresponding lack of support from family, friends, and church makes abortion seem to be the only choice for some.
If a man is starving and his family is starving, he's liable to steal in order to feed his family, even if stealing is illegal and punished harshly. The compassionate Christian response in such a situation is to alleviate the need, rather than to punish the wrongdoing. I say the situation regarding abortion is somewhat similar. It may be appropriate for the government to focus on reforming society with law and punishment, but not for the Christian.
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Dan Z
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Dan Z »

Wade wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Dan Z wrote:I honestly appreciate what you fellows are saying...I've been a contentious abstainer from voting my entire life, and this is where I have tried to live personally and practically throughout the years.

...a contentious abstainer... what form does that take?
Does not contentious objector sound a bit protesting? Abstainer sounds a bit more staying away from something in a non-resistant form. Or that is what it sounded like to me anyway...
Josh wrote:I think it's a joke since the proper term is "conscientious objector".
Actually, it's not a joke Josh. I chose the words "conscientious abstainer" quite deliberately. "Conscientious" meaning my non-voting is driven by conscience or conviction, and "Abstainer" meaning I choose to abstain, that is not participate in the voting process. I do not morally "object" to voting per se, so the word "objector" didn't seem to fit, but simply choose not to participate as a matter of conscience.

Silentreader - for me, being a "conscientious abstainer" means deliberately not voting, contributing to political parties or candidates, or volunteering in support of a candidate or election. Hope that helps.
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Josh
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Josh »

PeterG wrote:"Aren't even close to biblical commandments"? :?:

If those are leftist talking points, then good for the leftists, and may still more truth displace their errors. Truth isn't guilty by association.
Where is the biblical commandment to fight racism and cultural misunderstanding? And what justifies making it #1?

Someone who identifies as Mennonite and Christian recently said she feels that "sin" means racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, Islamaphobia, or anything else that oppresses the marginalised (where marginalised = basically not white, male, Christian, and straight).

I have a really difficult time reconciling this worldview with scripture or historic Christian practice.
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