Mennonites in the News

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Mennonites in the News

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:You've just spent a lot of time which you'll never get back in elaborating a point which I had already made.
I read the article. I quoted text from the article. I looked up what Koontz had done and what MC-USA had done and posted what I found, because the article didn't quote them directly. It really didn't take that much time.
haithabu wrote:3) I understand that people like to follow their own philosophical preferences in deciding which websites to follow. I do myself. After all, who ever logs on to the internet saying "I think I'll expose myself to some cognitive dissonance today"?

But I also understand that if I follow that practice exclusively, I'll deny myself perspectives that will broaden my understanding.
I read across the political spectrum, but I prefer to read sources that:
  • Are careful with facts, letting facts drive the narrative
  • Avoid propaganda techniques and tribalism
I really do benefit by hearing the facts and perspectives of all sides. I don't benefit by hearing the slander and tribalism and stomach-churning rhetoric. Let's just not live there.

Sometimes it's useful to look at a source like Stormfront or Frontpage Magazine just to understand how they influence people. When I do that, I try to look at an article and ask what it's about and look for facts.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Mennonites in the News

Post by Bootstrap »

So let me apply what I mentioned in the last post. What is this article about? What are the most relevant facts?

This article mostly about one question - should a math teacher be fired over political and religious views that she lives out in her personal life but does not bring into the classroom?

And the thing that the article is mostly about is not really addressed in the article. It tells us that she's a horrible person, links her to Nazis, and is outraged that she thinks she should not have been fired, but doesn't even ask the constitutional question.

Here's how Koontz explains the constitutional question:
I first became concerned with the situation in Israel and Palestine when I visited the region in the early 2000s, while serving a three-year term with the Mennonite Central Committee in Egypt. That interest intensified last fall, when our church hosted a weekly presentation series led by a member of our congregation. He told us about his trip to Israel and Palestine at the invitation of a group of Palestinian Christians. And he showed us video presentations by nongovernmental organizations, children's rights advocates, and former Israeli soldiers about the Israeli government’s treatment of Palestinians.

At the end of eight sessions, we talked about how boycotts, divestments, and sanctions could help bring about an end to the Israeli government’s occupation, in the same way those tactics helped dismantle apartheid in South Africa. I left the meeting with the conviction that I needed to do my part to support the Palestinian struggle for equality, even if it just meant not buying Sabra hummus or a SodaStream machine.
I am challenging this law because I believe that the First Amendment protects my right, and the right of all Americans, to make consumer spending decisions based on their political beliefs. You don’t need to share my beliefs or agree with my decisions to understand that this law violates my free speech rights. The state should not be telling people what causes they can or can’t support.

I am also sad that I cannot be a math trainer for the state of Kansas because of my political views about human rights across the globe. The two seem so distant and unrelated. My activism on behalf of freedom for all Israelis and Palestinians shouldn’t affect my ability to train math teachers. I hope this law will be recognized as a constitutional violation.
Here's how the lawsuit explains the constitutional question:
HB 2409 violates the Constitution. As the U.S. Supreme Court recognized in NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co., political boycotts are fully protected by the First Amendment rights to free expression and free association. By compelling state contractors to certify that they are not engaged in boycotts of Israel, HB 2409 imposes an ideological litmus test intended to penalize people who participate in boycott campaigns to protest the Israeli government. By the same token, the Act restricts all state contractors’ protected expression without any apparent justification other than impermissible viewpoint discrimination.

State contractors are free to engage in a wide variety of expression, including by participating in boycotts on all sorts of issues, but contractors who wish to boycott Israel are marked with a scarlet letter. In sum, the Act violates the First Amendment and the Equal Protection Clause by leveraging state contracts to prevent individuals and companies from fully participating on one side of the public debate regarding Israel and Palestine.
I'm not convinced that this kind of boycott makes much of a difference, and I suspect MC-USA has more important things to do than issue press releases, but I'm very concerned if the first amendment rights of Christians are endangered. The first amendment protects both political expression and religious expression.
haithabu wrote:I posted the article not because I endorse it (I think I made that clear) because it is always of interest to me what others say about Mennonites.
I don't think this represents what most people are saying about Mennonites. It's a pretty extreme view. I have literally never heard anyone describe Mennonites like this:
No one speaks for the Mennonites. They answer to no one but their God and their conscience. But in the highly-fragmented world of Anabaptist Mennonite thought, there are several sects and branches which have darkly drifted far away from the teachings and have embraced hate, fascism, terrorism, and politics.
I don't know what we learn from the fact that Frontpage Magazine does describe us that way. Except what we learn about Frontpage Magazine. And I find it a little alarming when someone says that while also telling us that a Mennonite should be fired because of her views.
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MaxPC
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Re: Mennonites in the News

Post by MaxPC »

haithabu wrote: You've just spent a lot of time which you'll never get back in elaborating a point which I had already made.

And also,

1) I'm no fan of BDS but I am not in favour of the law in question.

2) MCUSA can do whatever it likes, since I am not a member. If I were a member, I would oppose a divestment policy with respect to Israel because I consider such policies to be one-sided in considering the Israeli/Palestinian issue and largely symbolic. And as symbolism, divestment sends a message on behalf of all MCUSA's members which I would prefer not to be associated with.

3) I understand that people like to follow their own philosophical preferences in deciding which websites to follow. I do myself. After all, who ever logs on to the internet saying "I think I'll expose myself to some cognitive dissonance today"?

But I also understand that if I follow that practice exclusively, I'll deny myself perspectives that will broaden my understanding. I do occasionally follow links to articles Vox, HuffPost and other sites of that orientation and some are worth reading. I believe that everyone has a worthwhile story to tell, everyone has reasons for what they believe, and I never lose anything by considering those reasons even if they turn out to be fallacious.

I posted the article not because I endorse it (I think I made that clear) because it is always of interest to me what others say about Mennonites.
:up: :up:
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
PetrChelcicky
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Re: Mennonites in the News

Post by PetrChelcicky »

As for BDS,
1.I don't like any kind of Social Justice Warriorism, enforcing one's own moral convictions on others, not even in the form of boycotts or divestments (and of course not at all in the form of "sanctions").
2. I am convinced that everyone must have the right to avoid taking part in foreign sins (or what he sees as such). This implies the right of non-cooperation (including boycott or divestment). States must have no right to overrule personal matters of conscience.
3. The distinction is in my eyes completely clear - it is a distinction w.r.t. the goals of boycotts and divestments.
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PetrChelcicky
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Re: Mennonites in the News

Post by PetrChelcicky »

Frontpage quite correctly compares the present conflict between Jews and Palestinian Gentiles (farmers) with the historical conflicts between Jews and German or Russian Gentiles (farmers).
The progressive wing of MCUSA tries to do the contrary - telling that both conflicts are completely different. This will not work on the long run.
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