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Temp said this in the post-truth thread:

temporal1 wrote:well, KB, to me, your statement presumes an organized conservative group, i see zero indication such a thing exists.

however, the (minority) left is highly organized, to the point they follow a single script, whether they individually agree on it or not. to me, that's dangerous, if not cult-like.

the U.S. was structured to attempt to cope with exactly this: greed, power, politics.
so, the system may not be completely broken.

I agree with the first part, but I think 'conservative' means different things to different people. Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney are values conservatives who are not authoritarian and believe in balancing budgets. I think they have little in common with Trump and hold people like Jeff Sessions at arm's length.

Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are quite far from each other in many ways, and they had different supporters. Just as the Republican establishment's attempt to keep Trump out failed, the Democratic establishment's attempt to marginalize Bernie Sanders failed. There's not a lot of lock-step on either side of the aisle.

To me, Hillary Clinton, Paul Ryan, and Mitt Romney are a lot more like each other than any of them are to Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders.

If you take a careful look at either side, you see that they differ on several axes.

I agree with this, which is why I like Sanders, Sessions, and Trump, and I don't like Romney, Clinton, and Ryan. (Those are my personal biases.)

I am sceptical of established government power and in particular global elitism.

Josh wrote:I agree with this, which is why I like Sanders, Sessions, and Trump, and I don't like Romney, Clinton, and Ryan. (Those are my personal biases.)

I am sceptical of established government power and in particular global elitism.

The problem is that anti-establishment, as an idea, is generally an unproductive one.

Dan Z wrote:

Josh wrote:I agree with this, which is why I like Sanders, Sessions, and Trump, and I don't like Romney, Clinton, and Ryan. (Those are my personal biases.)

I am sceptical of established government power and in particular global elitism.

The problem is that anti-establishment, as an idea, is generally an unproductive one.

Then Anabaptism is an unproductive idea.

Josh wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

Josh wrote:I agree with this, which is why I like Sanders, Sessions, and Trump, and I don't like Romney, Clinton, and Ryan. (Those are my personal biases.)

I am sceptical of established government power and in particular global elitism.

The problem is that anti-establishment, as an idea, is generally an unproductive one.

Then Anabaptism is an unproductive idea.

Anabaptism may be anti-establishment in terms of its relationship to the kingdoms of this world, but it is pro-establishment when it comes to the Kingdom. That's not unproductive.

I don't think scepticism of global elitism (or elitism in general) is unproductive, though. Establishments should be questioned, particularly ones who have set themselves up as the sworn enemies of the Kingdom.

Josh wrote:I don't think scepticism of global elitism (or elitism in general) is unproductive, though. Establishments should be questioned, particularly ones who have set themselves up as the sworn enemies of the Kingdom.

Aren't Trump, Sessions or Sanders simply trying to replace one "establishment" with another (of their own making)? Is there more virtue in that than those trying to keep the status quo (and the stability and order that goes with it)?

And, furthermore, Isn't that what humans do...organize...try to bring order and stability to a world bent toward disorder? Isn't that what Romans 13 recognizes as a necessary and "God ordained" function in a fallen world?

I agree with OhioJones by the way...the Anabaptists saw themselves as part of the ultimate "establishment" - God's eternal and all-encompassing Kingdom.

Josh wrote:Establishments should be questioned, particularly ones who have set themselves up as the sworn enemies of the Kingdom.

Amen - especially to the second part of this statement!