Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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Wayne in Maine wrote:His course of action is consistent with his brand of Christianity. If a significant part of his religious orientation is wrong then his Christianity, which leads to his actions, is fundamentally wrong. We are so afraid of questioning someone's Christianity that we are left questioning their actions in a context entirely foreign to their Christianity, in the context of our Christianity, which really doesn't make sense.
Then let's please question culture wars Christianity, loudly, and point out that it is a false gospel. American political Christianity keeps selling its soul for the sake of power, influence, and status. Carson's denomination is irrelevant. I have no problem with him accepting a position at HUD. I don't think that's what Peter is getting at.

And look, if the descendants of Menno Simons and Michael Sattler become partisans for this kind of political faction, or agree that we must not ever criticize it, then the salt has lost its flavor. We are miles away from what they stood for. And I think they represented biblical Christianity correctly here.

Ben Carson is the man who helped Donald Trump pretend to be a Christian for the sake of the religious right. Here's one example 1:
If you’re a Christian, you’ve probably noticed that Donald Trump is terrible at pretending to be a Christian. He can’t properly quote the Bible, say the names of books of the Bible, or do the things the Bible tells us to do like ask for forgiveness. So Trump is teaming up with the far more believable Dr. Carson for this upcoming faith event...
He tells us about Trump's prayer 2:

And when Trump can't ask for God's forgiveness in public, Carson assures us that he has in private, so all is forgiven, and Christians must not hold any of his past sins against him now. He's the man who goes on cable news to assure us that bragging about sexual assault is really no big deal. He doesn't apply the same standards to Republicans and Democrats.

He kept saying weird things like this:

Image

Selling out our faith for the sake of political power is not a good thing. That's equally true for all denominations. I agree with the conclusion of this article:
There are many stories like this on the Christian right. Whether you call it capitulation or resignation I can’t say. But it is one thing to decide that Trump will be less awful to the pro-life cause than Hillary. It is quite another to prepare to endorse him as a man of faith. There is no reason to hear him out on this topic. He is a practiced liar and makes a mockery of Christianity.

Begrudgingly support his candidacy if you must. But putting on this spectacle of affirming a false prophet is grotesque. He’s just going to lie. And badly. I mean, even Satan knows the Bible. Trump can’t even say that. What does that tell you?
I agree with Peter. As a neurosurgeon, Carson gave a great Christian testimony. It's been eclipsed by his testimony for Trump and his political talking head schtick. There's something in me that deeply mourns the loss of Carson's earlier testimony.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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Wayne in Maine wrote: His course of action is consistent with his brand of Christianity. If a significant part of his religious orientation is wrong then his Christianity, which leads to his actions, is fundamentally wrong. We are so afraid of questioning someone's Christianity that we are left questioning their actions in a context entirely foreign to their Christianity, in the context of our Christianity, which really doesn't make sense.
In this we agree, Wayne. Actions as a fruit of one's Christianity is important. I see this as an extension of the Scripture [bible]1 Corinthians 12,4-31[/bible]
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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MaxPC wrote:In this we agree, Wayne. Actions as a fruit of one's Christianity is important. I see this as an extension of the Scripture
Again, I have no problem with Carson serving as HUD secretary.

But you seem to be implying that Carson's actions during the election were consistent fruit that testifies to true faith. If actions are important as a fruit of one's Christianity, I don't think these were the right actions. If we want to be a credible moral voice, we simply cannot excuse every blatant sin in Trump and treat Trump's faith as credible. Or if we do, we have to change the core of our faith so that we stand for what Trump stands for. Carson's role as apologist for Trump's morals and faith has been more than a little disturbing.

Can you explain more? Perhaps pointing to some of the things I mentioned in the previous two posts?
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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Again I will admit that I have not read all the pages here so I may be saying something someone else has already said. If so forgive me.

Here is the issue as I see it. I do not remember ever hearing Carson say that Trump was a good Christian. Perhaps he has and if so I would disagree with him.

However I believe the reason that Trump and many other Christian's felt comfortable supporting Trump (I was not nor am one of them) was for a very different reason than that they felt Trump was a virtuous Christian man. Rightly or wrongly they sensed that they may have found a man would will actually listen to some of their concerns and not write them off as bigoted lunatics as much of the left wing media and most mainline politicians have started to do. I really believe that it was that fact more than any other that put Trump over the top.

Before you quickly dismiss what I am saying think about this for a minute. The belief system that many Christians hold too particularly evangelicals were pretty mainstream only 15 to 20 years ago. But all that has changed. Now, to believe that abortion is wrong or that marriage is between a man and a women, invites the public to address you, ironically, in the most bigoted and hateful way imaginable. And that change happened very very fast.

The day after your election I heard a former local liberal provincial cabinet minister say something that I found to be really honest. He stated that he believed that the results of the election should be a wakeup call for all liberals and that the fact was, that things have changed very quickly over the last 20 years and many in society have felt misunderstood and left behind. Trump to a large extent latched on to that demographic.

I think he is exactly right.

And so while I do not agree with Carson's brand of Christianity I do not see it as my place to damn him to hell either. I will leave his relationship with God between him and God. I believe I can still admire many of the things that he stands for even though I may not agree with his stance on politics. I happen to be a bit different than some of you in that I do not expect everyone in Heaven to look and think exactly like me. While some of you may disagree I do not think that that makes my faith or belief system less strong. I just choose not to feel threatened by those that think differently than I on some issues.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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appleman2006 wrote:And so while I do not agree with Carson's brand of Christianity I do not see it as my place to damn him to hell either. I will leave his relationship with God between him and God. I believe I can still admire many of the things that he stands for even though I may not agree with his stance on politics.
I'm pretty sure everyone on this thread agrees with you here, including Peter and me.
appleman2006 wrote:Here is the issue as I see it. I do not remember ever hearing Carson say that Trump was a good Christian. Perhaps he has and if so I would disagree with him.
I really think Carson has served as "the apostle of Trump to right-wing politicized Christianity", which really had a hard time living with Trump initially. Carson promoted Trump as a Christian, suggested Trump has asked for and received forgiveness and is now beyond scrutiny, and normalized rather blatant sins. And he has also called all true Christians to support Trump in a way that links his branch of right-wing politicized Christianity to Trump. I posted several examples here, if you follow the links. I could post a long stream of examples if people really want to see it.

If our faith stands uncritically in solidarity with Trump, then Trump is a big part of what our faith stands for. Even many right-wing politicized Christians could not follow that path, my quotes from Red State are one example.

Again, I have no problem with Christians who decide that they have no good choices in this election, and choose Trump as the lesser of two evils. I felt the same way, though I did not vote for Trump. I deeply respect my non-voting brethren who saw this election as confirmation of how there are no good choices in an election.
appleman2006 wrote:Before you quickly dismiss what I am saying think about this for a minute. The belief system that many Christians hold too particularly evangelicals were pretty mainstream only 15 to 20 years ago. But all that has changed. Now, to believe that abortion is wrong or that marriage is between a man and a women, invites the public to address you, ironically, in the most bigoted and hateful way imaginable. And that change happened very very fast.
The change that allowed us to elect a man with Trump's moral history also happened fast. And remember that Trump was not pro-life until he decided to run as a Republican in this election. We'll see what Trump does in office, he seems to have the ability to change positions fairly quickly.

If you're voting for morality and marriage, even if you think Trump is the better choice, shouldn't you be more than a little uncomfortable with a man who brags about adultery, sexual assault, and being allowed to walk around dressing rooms with naked teenage girls, who poses on a Playboy cover with a woman wearing nothing but his suit jacket, whose new wives keep getting younger as he grows older, whose books tell people how important it is to have prenuptial agreements to plan for divorce ...

Again, I can see Christians deciding that Trump was the least-worst choice available. But I cannot see Christians papering this all over as though none of this was an issue.
appleman2006 wrote:I happen to be a bit different than some of you in that I do not expect everyone in Heaven to look and think exactly like me. While some of you may disagree I do not think that that makes my faith or belief system less strong. I just choose not to feel threatened by those that think differently than I on some issues.
I agree.

At the same time, I think it's important to think through what it is we stand for as Christians. And in some ways, those of you who do not vote have a real advantage here, you don't have to identify with any politician or talking head.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

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What I heard from Carson, was not that Trump was a glowing example, but that he was connected/comfortable to people of faith.

Over the past 8 years, there has been a raising tide of disconnect with many "traditional" Christians and government. Many have felt pushed out and actually on the minority side. While I think that might be a good thing overall, Carson, as surrogate, and Trump have shown to be open and accepting of a much more traditional view of our culture being built on a Judeo-Christian foundation. By Carson and Trump working together, it is a sign that "we" are compatible and accepted in the coming administration.

I also think Carson focuses on the positive of Trump right now and not the negative. I think a LOT of people tried to do that 8 years ago when Obama was elected. I remember many giving him the benefit of the doubt. I see Carson doing the same. If things do turn and this turns out to be wrong, I do think we will see Carson step away. To be honest. I do not think this will happen. Trump has shown is is loyal to his base. I do not see him trying to distance himself from the religious right. I think he will use them for support as he tries to address immigration and terrorism. Make no mistakes. Trump is no dummie. He may not be fluent in speech, but he has manipulated the media for years. He knows how to work people to get what he wants.

One thing I value about Carson and I hear it from Trump is a desire to cut wasteful spending.

I kind of see Trump as a modern day Nebuchadnezzar. Will be interesting to see if he ends up eating grass.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by appleman2006 »

Just to clarify a few things. I did not see Trump as a better option than Clinton. I just did not see him as any worse. I certainly would not of voted in this election for lots of reasons. 8 years ago I had severe misgivings about President Obama as well, most of which have proved to be true but I remember hoping against hope that I would be proved wrong. I wanted him to succeed. Just as I now hope that Trump does.

Bootstrap, I disagree though with one statement that you made. In regards to the speed that your society accepted a immoral president. Surly you jest. Immorality among your presidents is not a new thing. It has long been accepted by many. Probably there are few times in history though where both candidates failed so miserably in this category. But to castigate on side over the other on this point makes no sense in this election.

But I again make the point that I fear you missed and that was that a sizable amount of the electorate saw the left as being every bit if not more bigoted as the right and they were tired of it. They were tired of the imbalance in reporting. (Case in point when the Dems got caught actually being responsible for the violence at the Trump rallies and it barely hit the news when everybody knows had it been reversed that would of been front page news for the rest of the campaign). They got tired of a bunch of Hollywood elites pretending to be on the side of good when one knows that almost all they stand for is selfishness and corruption. They got tired of the hypocrisy of someone like Hillary calling out Trump on his morality and then allowing bands to play at her events that almost made Trump look like an angel. I could go on for awhile but...

So again I do not see what Carson did in this election as being something I could encourage but nor do I think it made him an evil man. I will leave it at that.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by PeterG »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
PeterG wrote:I'm not sure I'm following you, Wayne. If you're saying that I should question Dr. Carson's Christianity, etc., I just can't go that far. I think it's sufficient to say that his course of action—and, indeed, a significant part of his religious orientation—is wrong.
His course of action is consistent with his brand of Christianity. If a significant part of his religious orientation is wrong then his Christianity, which leads to his actions, is fundamentally wrong. We are so afraid of questioning someone's Christianity that we are left questioning their actions in a context entirely foreign to their Christianity, in the context of our Christianity, which really doesn't make sense.
I think I see your point, Wayne. Yes, I am afraid of questioning someone's Christianity on the basis of any point this side of the deity and humanity of Christ, generally speaking. I fear that it would be reductionist and narcissistic to definitively identify Christianity with my own beliefs.

While differences in perspective are obvious and disagreement will persist, I expect that we could have a meaningful conversation on these issues with Dr. Carson or anyone else in some way committed to the New Testament. "Entirely foreign" is a stretch, significant differences notwithstanding.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by PeterG »

Robert wrote:What I heard from Carson, was not that Trump was a glowing example, but that he was connected/comfortable to people of faith.

Over the past 8 years, there has been a raising tide of disconnect with many "traditional" Christians and government. Many have felt pushed out and actually on the minority side. While I think that might be a good thing overall, Carson, as surrogate, and Trump have shown to be open and accepting of a much more traditional view of our culture being built on a Judeo-Christian foundation. By Carson and Trump working together, it is a sign that "we" are compatible and accepted in the coming administration.

I also think Carson focuses on the positive of Trump right now and not the negative. I think a LOT of people tried to do that 8 years ago when Obama was elected. I remember many giving him the benefit of the doubt. I see Carson doing the same. If things do turn and this turns out to be wrong, I do think we will see Carson step away. To be honest. I do not think this will happen. Trump has shown is is loyal to his base. I do not see him trying to distance himself from the religious right. I think he will use them for support as he tries to address immigration and terrorism. Make no mistakes. Trump is no dummie. He may not be fluent in speech, but he has manipulated the media for years. He knows how to work people to get what he wants.

One thing I value about Carson and I hear it from Trump is a desire to cut wasteful spending.

I kind of see Trump as a modern day Nebuchadnezzar. Will be interesting to see if he ends up eating grass.
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