Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
temporal1
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote:
temporal1 wrote:the entire DNC was sold out on corporate abortion, top-down, they left no flexibility. at all.
they lost many votes there.
I would say this was a leading issue for the religious right to support Trump since he clearly stated he would appoint pro life judges.

I also think that many of the religious right that sat out last election with Romney felt driven not to do that again. I see it as a reaction to their failure to support Romney and the affects of that the past 4 years.
2-for-1! thank you. :D
just prior to the election, i knew of 2 cases where young mothers secretly killed their newborn infants, with community and courts judging harshly (one was on the college campus near me.)
i couldn't help but be sickened by these judgments, when, had these young women "simply" turned the killing over to corporations, very few, or none, would have known, those who did, would accept without question. this points to the importance of "corporate profit" in the matter.

as well, commitment to full-term abortions, which is now leading to some sanctioned post-birth murders, AND, the party refusal to respect human rights of unborn human beings, altogether painted a grisly "party platform."

about Romney. interesting.
i believe, the failure to elect Romney in 2012 impacted the 2014 Mid Term elections.
however, in the process of the 2016 campaign, strange things happened.

one big thing (for many) was witnessing how Romney, but not just Romney, how these became recognized to be "establishment" politicians, i.e., as SOME had been saying for years, they were 1 party (for themselves) not 2 parties (willing to represent the people.)
what had been seen as conjecture, was revealed to be fact, by their own public statements - no longer speculation.

the blatant DNC-RNC establishment "entitlement" attitude reflected did not go down well.

2016 was, also, a political point of change in Mexico, nearly ignored in "news," and, in England, with Brexit. i really have no idea how choices in Mexico, England, and Canada, may have affected U.S. voters. probably many voters know nothing of these countries, i know very little! and, i look for it!

(all from what i observed. so, fwiw.
on MD, i see most differences stemming from what-is-observed, more-than core divisions in personal understanding.)
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Robert wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Effective enough to be endorsed by people who should know better! I have long suspected that the religious right was fundamentally a political movement with religious trappings. Mr. Trump all but proves it.

J.M.
I think that stereotypes and groups a lot of people into one when most the ones who voted for Trump seem to come from their own perspective. Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin were not lead by the religious right. They seem were more reactive to the job situations. Some in the southern states, immigration was key. Yet another group, the war on terror was their primary concern.
No, indeed, in those cases, he figured out how to get people to vote against their economic interests. A great salesman for sure.

To think a union-busting, small business stiffing, imported labor exploiting individual has the interests of midwest white working class voters interest at heart boggles the mind. I just don't get it.

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by Josh »

As pilgrims & strangers we do have to express our "brand" of Christianity includes that Christians don't kill their enemies - and there isn't any more wiggle room for people who claim to be Christians to find ways to justify killing than there is any room to justify an abortion of convenience.

I'm surprised at the reticence to express this.
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PeterG
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by PeterG »

PeterG wrote:
Robert wrote:What I heard from Carson, was not that Trump was a glowing example, but that he was connected/comfortable to people of faith.

Over the past 8 years, there has been a raising tide of disconnect with many "traditional" Christians and government. Many have felt pushed out and actually on the minority side. While I think that might be a good thing overall, Carson, as surrogate, and Trump have shown to be open and accepting of a much more traditional view of our culture being built on a Judeo-Christian foundation. By Carson and Trump working together, it is a sign that "we" are compatible and accepted in the coming administration.

I also think Carson focuses on the positive of Trump right now and not the negative. I think a LOT of people tried to do that 8 years ago when Obama was elected. I remember many giving him the benefit of the doubt. I see Carson doing the same. If things do turn and this turns out to be wrong, I do think we will see Carson step away. To be honest. I do not think this will happen. Trump has shown is is loyal to his base. I do not see him trying to distance himself from the religious right. I think he will use them for support as he tries to address immigration and terrorism. Make no mistakes. Trump is no dummie. He may not be fluent in speech, but he has manipulated the media for years. He knows how to work people to get what he wants.

One thing I value about Carson and I hear it from Trump is a desire to cut wasteful spending.

I kind of see Trump as a modern day Nebuchadnezzar. Will be interesting to see if he ends up eating grass.
It is extremely dangerous for Christians to resist identity as strangers and pilgrims.
Robert wrote:Can you explain this more. I am not really understanding what you are saying.
The way of Jesus has always been narrow, and there has always been a disconnect between governments and the followers of Christ. This was just as true under Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, and Reagan as it has been under Obama. It will persist under Trump, regardless of the state of his relationship to "'traditional' Christians." I'm afraid that perceptions to the contrary indicate a profound misunderstanding, if not denial, of history and biblical truth.

Likewise, I'm afraid that it is incorrect for Christians to feel that they once fit comfortably in our society and can regain a position of comfort politically. Maybe Trump will give Christians what they want in this regard (though I highly doubt it for several reasons, not the least being that the Clinton-voting majority is unlikely to play along), but is Trump-as-Constantine really what we ought to want?

I don't think we really disagree much, if at all. As you said—
Robert wrote:Many have felt pushed out and actually on the minority side. [...] I think that might be a good thing overall.
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Robert
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by Robert »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: To think a union-busting, small business stiffing, imported labor exploiting individual has the interests of midwest white working class voters interest at heart boggles the mind. I just don't get it.

J.M.
Like in 2004 and 2008, it says a lot about the opponent also. Sometimes people feel like all they have left to do is choose the lesser of the two evils.
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ohio jones
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by ohio jones »

This is why we need a multiple party system with at least half a dozen evils to choose from.
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temporal1
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote: To think a union-busting, small business stiffing, imported labor exploiting individual has the interests of midwest white working class voters interest at heart boggles the mind. I just don't get it.
J.M.
Like in 2004 and 2008, it says a lot about the opponent also. Sometimes people feel like all they have left to do is choose the lesser of the two evils.
many people value other things more than union jobs.

i recall my parents using that phrase, "the lesser of two evils," when i was very young, 1950's. i have no idea how old it was then. so, it goes back. it might go 'way back, before Christ (?) politics were established as a pox on society long before Christ.

my parents did not always vote, i presume they voted "some." they so valued/respected the secret ballot, which i believe many did, they did not even tell one another who they voted for!

in my view, the secret ballot has been highly compromised since the advent of so much polling .. which leads to widespread typecasting of voters. it's so detailed, how can this honestly be considered a secret ballot?
ohio jones wrote:This is why we need a multiple party system with at least half a dozen evils to choose from.
truly. ;)
i am surprised that there is now such widespread recognition that what "evolved" in U.S. politics was a 1 establishment party charading as 2. i did not predict this. true, some wise thinkers spotted this in the past, but, it was not widely recognized. i believe that's changed now.

(i think) voters (as a whole, with variations within) chose Trump, not because he was "so awesome," but because the others had devolved so badly.

and, frankly, this is the essential reasoning (i suppose) of U.S. government structure:
that ALL politicians will become corrupt, if not held in check. no exceptions. they are all human.

U.S. founding fathers knew history.
they weren't creating something new so much as simply attempting to respond to historical failures, including Biblical history. it does appear education in earlier times was much better than present U.S. DOE.

the fails of decades will not be cured in one election.
not without divine intervention. which is always a possibility.

it remains to be seen what Trump will bring to the office.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Robert
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by Robert »

ohio jones wrote:This is why we need a multiple party system with at least half a dozen evils to choose from.
Well, I did vote, but did not vote for either of the two major party candidates, so we have a multiple party system, but most people will only vote for one of the two because they believe they are the only ones who have a chance to win. I chose to vote for a loser(who I viewed as lesser of an evil) instead of pick one of two major evils.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by JimFoxvog »

Robert wrote: Well, I did vote, but did not vote for either of the two major party candidates, so we have a multiple party system, but most people will only vote for one of the two because they believe they are the only ones who have a chance to win. I chose to vote for a loser(who I viewed as lesser of an evil) instead of pick one of two major evils.
I made the same choice, knowing my state was safe for the lesser of the two possibly elected evils.
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Re: Dr Ben Carson - Post 2016 Election

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:
ohio jones wrote:This is why we need a multiple party system with at least half a dozen evils to choose from.
Well, I did vote, but did not vote for either of the two major party candidates, so we have a multiple party system, but most people will only vote for one of the two because they believe they are the only ones who have a chance to win. I chose to vote for a loser(who I viewed as lesser of an evil) instead of pick one of two major evils.
I know a lot of people who did that, and I can definitely see the logic.
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