Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
appleman2006
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by appleman2006 »

ohio jones wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:But if I were Caesar, I would not want monuments to honor a bloody war fought against me.
Exactly. The victor not only writes the history, but erects the monuments. The South seems to be an odd exception to this, having lost the war but never really conceded. Still, there are few if any statues of Lee in the North or of Lincoln in the South.

Actually there are statues of King George in Philadelphia, and of President George in London, installed years after the countries had become allies; but Viktor the Viking has no trophies commemorating the Super Bowls his team didn't win.

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the aim of this iconoclasm is to clear a site for a sixty-cubit statue of someone else who likes gold ...
Another place that I think you will find a monument to a loser would be in Quebec city I believe.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by temporal1 »

ohio jones wrote: .. The victor not only writes the history, but erects the monuments.

The South seems to be an odd exception to this, having lost the war but never really conceded.
Still, there are few if any statues of Lee in the North or of Lincoln in the South ...
i've always lived in the north, never owned a Confederate flag or other items from the U.S. Civil War. when i was young, my family took a brief trip south, got as far as Atlanta area, was puzzled about various new things i saw, including the Confederate flag .. this was before interstate highways, so, lots of rich sights to take in.

i asked about the Confederate flag. my father said, "winning and losing wars are two different things." he described how winners could more easily "forgive+forget," it's harder when losing. i believe he was wise about many things.

i've always thought it's a testament to general diversity and acceptance in the U.S., that the north never felt the need to full-on destroy the South, to remove all vestiges of their past, to think of genocide, or other harsh penalties that "winners" of wars often employ.

it was a civil war. many families divided, many fighting against one another: "the people" were tired of war, all had suffered, people wanted to move on. taking it further would not have been moving on. it would have continued it.

winners of wars, or even everyday arguments, are best not to "rub salt" in wounds.
you won. now, get on with more important things.

having said that ^^^
there is a lot of poignant literature that has come out of the South, that could have only come out of the South. we have a common history. not identical, some harsh, ugliness, but, still, history.
it's part of the whole.

now i'm reading, there are demands for new statues to replace the former.
would it have been impossible to erect new statues without first destroying the former?

but, then, i never believed it's about flags or statues.
it's about mob rule on all matters. no act will satisfy this kind of appetite. it's not possible.

for decades, logical thinking Christians have been trying to "negotiate to peace" via human law, human acts. it does not work. it's based on a false premise that the mob is seeking logical answers.
if that were the case, they would have arrived at them without aggression.
the appetite cannot be satisfied with human logic, human law.

so, decade after decade, it continues. words, stated demands change, the insatiable appetite does not. Jesus told us all about this. some listen.

fwiw. this is my view. i think it may be the not-articulated view of some others who are silent (?)
silence does not equate to certain agreement - no matter how some may accuse that it does.
neither do noisy accusations equate to truth.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by PeterG »

Temp, honest question. Do you think you understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the Confederate battle flag and memorials honoring Confederate leaders?

(FWIW, I think I understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the removal of Confederate flags and memorials. )
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temporal1
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by temporal1 »

PeterG wrote:Temp, honest question. Do you think you understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the Confederate battle flag and memorials honoring Confederate leaders?

(FWIW, I think I understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the removal of Confederate flags and memorials. )
i certainly understand.
any logical person, logical Christian, understands. and, does not agree or support.

in a free society, individuals must put up with things they do not support.
some do not support CO's. but CO's are allowed and protected.

i would love it if i never saw a nazi emblem or political rainbow flag again, ever, in my life.
i'd love for my granddaughter to never know what these things are.

but, i'm not seeking removal by government, seeking laws to ban them, or burning them in private or public. as much as it hurts, insults, i won't do that.

for one reason, because i want CO's to freely exist in the U.S.

overall, i've read many wonderful views on this topic on this on this forum.
it would be hard for me to pick out "best of show."
i appreciate Robert's views overall regarding the politics of it.

thankfully, scriptures tell us we will suffer on earth. how much harder it would be if that part were left out. Jesus does not tell us to petition government to answer our prayers.

these folks who are being organized+told they need to organize politically are being told lies.
i feel sorry for them. that's a sad and empty way to go.

hope that helps.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by Bootstrap »

PeterG wrote:Temp, honest question. Do you think you understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the Confederate battle flag and memorials honoring Confederate leaders?
temporal1 wrote:in a free society, individuals must put up with things they do not support.
some do not support CO's. but CO's are allowed and protected.

i would love it if i never saw a nazi emblem or political rainbow flag again, ever, in my life.
i'd love for my granddaughter to never know what these things are.

but, i'm not seeking removal by government, seeking laws to ban them, or burning them in private or public. as much as it hurts, insults, i won't do that.

for one reason, because i want CO's to freely exist in the U.S.
I think the real debate is about what the government puts up as monuments in public spaces. I don't want our public parks to prominently display rainbow flags, Confederate flags, Nazi symbols, or other things that some people feel offended or threatened by.

On the other hand, I certainly don't want the government to stop private citizens from expressing ourselves using the symbols that represent us. There's a big difference between a Confederate flag on my neighbor's house and a Confederate flag on a courthouse that represents justice for all.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by temporal1 »

temporal1 wrote: .. but, then, i never believed it's about flags or statues.
it's about mob rule on all matters. no act will satisfy this kind of appetite. it's not possible.

for decades, logical thinking Christians have been trying to "negotiate to peace" via human law, human acts. it does not work.

it's based on a false premise that the mob is seeking logical answers.
if that were the case, they would have arrived at them without aggression.


the appetite cannot be satisfied with human logic, human law.

so, decade after decade, it continues. words, stated demands change, the insatiable appetite does not. Jesus told us all about this. some listen ..
one example of utter logic-free madness:

Asian Robert Lee :roll:
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... -name.html

Lee Name Meaning
https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=lee

i wonder about the widespread presumption that certain people are presumed to be inable to learn with any fullness or depth. to me, this would be a serious insult. to be fed enough to be used, not enough to reason.

it's also possible that "Lee" or "Li," as an Asian name, might have as bad or worse connotations in history as the European "Lee." i feel certain no one has investigated this possibility. if so, it would not be useful for this particular narrative, that the "Lee" name is evil and must be eliminated from the face of the earth.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by MaxPC »

Here is an excerpt from a sermon I read and in which I found particular encouragement. Hopefully this will also encourage others as well.
Individuals, cultures, the Church, and nations all have pasts. There we will find both the glory and what is gory, virtue and vice, what is ennobling and what is embarrassing. We’ve got some nuts in our family tree; in our American family, some of our heroes could also be heathens. Flawed men led ancient Israel and the Church... Flawed men led our country in its early years. Flawed men wrote the Constitution. Flawed people lead our country today.

Perhaps the best stance is to accept (though not approve of) this fact, learning to imitate the virtues of the past while avoiding the vices. This is honest and sober remembering. Further, we should ponder with amazement what God can do, even with the mess of this human family of ours.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:it's based on a false premise that the mob is seeking logical answers.
if that were the case, they would have arrived at them without aggression.
They did. The City of Charlottesville decided, without aggression, to remove the statue and rename the park. The mobs decided to threaten and intimidate the town to get their own way.

If you don't want mob rule, democratic government is a great way to make these decisions. And different local governments will reach different conclusions.

And I agree, the biggest issue is really mob rule versus democratic government.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by temporal1 »

Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:it's based on a false premise that the mob is seeking logical answers.
if that were the case, they would have arrived at them without aggression.
They did. The City of Charlottesville decided, without aggression, to remove the statue and rename the park. The mobs decided to threaten and intimidate the town to get their own way.

If you don't want mob rule, democratic government is a great way to make these decisions. And different local governments will reach different conclusions.

And I agree, the biggest issue is really mob rule versus democratic government.
disagree.
all this began when obama decided to exploit the Dylann Roof tragedy to "call for" unilateral removal of Confederate flags from the face of the earth. i don't believe he took any legal measures, or asked for citizens' vote or input. it was just done, mostly by DNC leaders .. and it included removal from lots of private, non-government places. there was talk of removing the classic movie and book, "Gone with the Wind," from (Amazon?) ..

what's happening today is a continuation of this ..

if i understand correctly, the original protest was about this: unilateral and even covert, in the middle of the night, removal of (now) all-things of Southern Civil War history, not just flags, where it began.

that's not a democracy, or representative republic.

logical thinkers thought removing Confederate flags would bring peace. nope.
bullying does not bring peace. gov does not bring peace.

2000 years later, Jesus continues to weep.
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:all this began when obama decided to exploit the Dylann Roof tragedy to "call for" unilateral removal of Confederate flags from the face of the earth. i don't believe he took any legal measures, or asked for citizens' vote or input. it was just done, mostly by DNC leaders .. and it included removal from lots of private, non-government places. there was talk of removing the classic movie and book, "Gone with the Wind," from (Amazon?) ..
Could you please find the original quotes from Obama, quoting a reliable source? If I thought that was what happened, I would be concerned too.

I have a very different memory of what happened. In his eulogy for the pastor that died, Obama pointed out that the Confederate flag is a symbol of pain for many citizens, and suggested that taking it down from the South Carolina capital building would be a good move.
For too long, we were blind to the pain that the Confederate flag stirred in too many of our citizens. (Applause.) It’s true, a flag did not cause these murders. But as people from all walks of life, Republicans and Democrats, now acknowledge -- including Governor Haley, whose recent eloquence on the subject is worthy of praise -- (applause) -- as we all have to acknowledge, the flag has always represented more than just ancestral pride. (Applause.) For many, black and white, that flag was a reminder of systemic oppression and racial subjugation. We see that now.

Removing the flag from this state’s capitol would not be an act of political correctness; it would not be an insult to the valor of Confederate soldiers. It would simply be an acknowledgment that the cause for which they fought -- the cause of slavery -- was wrong -- (applause) -- the imposition of Jim Crow after the Civil War, the resistance to civil rights for all people was wrong. (Applause.) It would be one step in an honest accounting of America’s history; a modest but meaningful balm for so many unhealed wounds. It would be an expression of the amazing changes that have transformed this state and this country for the better, because of the work of so many people of goodwill, people of all races striving to form a more perfect union. By taking down that flag, we express God’s grace. (Applause.)
But that wasn't Obama's idea. Nikki Haley, the Republican governor of South Carolina, was championing this before Obama said that. Not long after, the South Carolina legislature passed a bill to remove the flag, and Nikki Haley signed it.

I think that's a democratic process.

And removing the symbols the mob rallies around, using democratic means, can be one way of saying we don't want to be intimidated by them.

I think it's important to be careful about facts here. Mob rule is often fueled by conspiracy theories, which are fueled by fear and hate. If you can get people to fear and hate someone enough, you can get them to believe almost anything. So it's especially important to be careful about facts when talking about someone you don't like.
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