Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Bootstrap
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:31 am

You can find Nikki Haley's speech here, and see it here. Here's what she said about the Confederate flag. It's probably relevant for other monuments we are discussing here.

Nikki Haley wrote:That brings me to the subject of the Confederate Flag that flies on our Statehouse grounds.

For many people in our state, the flag stands for traditions that are noble. Traditions of history, of heritage, and of ancestry. The hate-filled murderer who massacred our brothers and sisters in Charleston has a sick and twisted view of the flag. In no way does he reflect the people in our state who respect, and in many ways, revere it.

Those South Carolinians view the flag as a symbol of respect, integrity, and duty. They also see it as a memorial, a way to honor ancestors who came to the service of their state during a time of great conflict.

That is not hate. Nor is it racism.

At the same time, for many others in South Carolina, the flag is a deeply offensive symbol of a brutally oppressive past.

As a state, we can survive, and indeed we can thrive, as we have done, while still being home to both of those viewpoints. We do not need to declare a winner and a loser. We respect freedom of expression, and for those who wish to show their respect for the flag on their private property, no one will stand in your way.

But the Statehouse is different. And the events of the past week call upon all of us to look at this in a different way.


Nikki Haley wrote:The murderer now locked up in Charleston said he hoped his actions would start a race war. We have an opportunity to show that not only was he wrong, but that just the opposite is happening. My hope is that by removing a symbol that divides us, we can move our state forward in harmony, and we can honor the nine blessed souls who are now in Heaven.


Nikki Haley wrote:We know that bringing down the Confederate flag will not bring back the nine kind souls taken from us, nor rid us of the hate and bigotry that drove a monster through the doors of Mother Emanuel that night. Some divisions are bigger than a flag. The evil we saw last Wednesday comes from a place much deeper, much darker.

But we are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer. The fact that people are choosing to use it as a sign of hate is a something we cannot stand. The fact that it causes pain to so many is enough to move it from the Capitol grounds – it is, after all, a Capitol that belongs to all of us.

July Fourth is just around the corner. Soon we will once again celebrate the birth of our nation and our freedoms. It will be fitting that our state Capitol will soon fly the flags of our country and of our state, and no others.
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temporal1
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby temporal1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:03 pm

will this mark the end of seeing that gaudy blasphemous rainbow flag flying everywhere? .. displayed painted on streets, "liberally" used in public schools, promoted in the U.S. and overseas?
posthaste, it needs to go.

it represents no state or country.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:15 pm

temporal1 wrote:will this mark the end of seeing that gaudy blasphemous rainbow flag flying everywhere? .. displayed painted on streets, "liberally" used in public schools, promoted in the U.S. and overseas?
posthaste, it needs to go.

it represents no state or country.


I would like to see it go. I would like to see that happen by a democratic process, not by mob rule. I'm not sure exactly what settings it is being used in.
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PeterG
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby PeterG » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:21 pm

temporal1 wrote:
PeterG wrote:Temp, honest question. Do you think you understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the Confederate battle flag and memorials honoring Confederate leaders?

(FWIW, I think I understand why some people feel offended or threatened by the removal of Confederate flags and memorials. )
i certainly understand.
any logical person, logical Christian, understands. and, does not agree or support.

I want to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that logical Christians do not agree with or support the reasons some people have for feeling offended or threatened by Confederate symbols?

Do/should logical Christians agree with or support the reasons Jewish people have for feeling offended or threatened by Nazi symbols?

I'm not asking whether or not it is right to support political action against symbols.
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PeterG
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby PeterG » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:22 pm

Bootstrap wrote:I would like to see it go. I would like to see that happen by a democratic process, not by mob rule.

I would like to see it happen by a spiritual process. :)
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temporal1
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby temporal1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:23 pm

Bootstrap wrote:You can find Nikki Haley's speech here, and see it here. Here's what she said about the Confederate flag. It's probably relevant for other monuments we are discussing here.

Nikki Haley wrote:That brings me to the subject of the Confederate Flag that flies on our Statehouse grounds.

For many people in our state, the flag stands for traditions that are noble. Traditions of history, of heritage, and of ancestry. The hate-filled murderer who massacred our brothers and sisters in Charleston has a sick and twisted view of the flag. In no way does he reflect the people in our state who respect, and in many ways, revere it.

Those South Carolinians view the flag as a symbol of respect, integrity, and duty. They also see it as a memorial, a way to honor ancestors who came to the service of their state during a time of great conflict.

That is not hate. Nor is it racism.

At the same time, for many others in South Carolina, the flag is a deeply offensive symbol of a brutally oppressive past.

As a state, we can survive, and indeed we can thrive, as we have done, while still being home to both of those viewpoints. We do not need to declare a winner and a loser. We respect freedom of expression, and for those who wish to show their respect for the flag on their private property, no one will stand in your way.

But the Statehouse is different. And the events of the past week call upon all of us to look at this in a different way.


Nikki Haley wrote:The murderer now locked up in Charleston said he hoped his actions would start a race war. We have an opportunity to show that not only was he wrong, but that just the opposite is happening. My hope is that by removing a symbol that divides us, we can move our state forward in harmony, and we can honor the nine blessed souls who are now in Heaven.


Nikki Haley wrote:We know that bringing down the Confederate flag will not bring back the nine kind souls taken from us, nor rid us of the hate and bigotry that drove a monster through the doors of Mother Emanuel that night. Some divisions are bigger than a flag. The evil we saw last Wednesday comes from a place much deeper, much darker.

But we are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer. The fact that people are choosing to use it as a sign of hate is a something we cannot stand. The fact that it causes pain to so many is enough to move it from the Capitol grounds – it is, after all, a Capitol that belongs to all of us.

July Fourth is just around the corner. Soon we will once again celebrate the birth of our nation and our freedoms. It will be fitting that our state Capitol will soon fly the flags of our country and of our state
and no others.

coincidentally, i just stumbled across this quote, it was stand-alone, no context or date .. but, it reminded me a bit more of the response to obama's exploitation of the Dylann Roof tragedy .. which, i believe Trump is referring to here:
Nikki Haley was the first recent person to accept the unacceptable action of the left, and remove a symbol.

Now she herself can be pointed to as the reason for the left thinking their actions will get results...BECAUSE THEY DO!

And you see now, why I think her appointment to the u.n is a disgusting betrayal.
Donald J. Trump
boot, you are very good at locating quotes made by liberal RNC reps, then using them as examples of what all conservatives believe+want, when, in fact, they are highly criticized within the group.

it's not like the DNC where a few write one script for all to recite+comply with.
and, i hope it will never come to that. that would represent a grave loss for the U.S.

(i write this, understanding, most/many on this forum do not recognize any political flags.)
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William Faulkner, Requiem for a Nun

Bootstrap
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:01 pm

Nikki Haley was nominated to the United Nations by Donald Trump, and every single Republican voted for her - only a few Democrats and independents did not. So I'm having some difficulty understanding that quote. Is Trump saying her appointment is a disgusting betrayal, when he is the one who appointed her? A little context would help. Are you sure Trump said that? If so, where, and why? Surely Trump knew that she had signed this bill before he appointed her.

When they voted on the bill, only three South Carolina senators opposed it, and support in the house was 94 to 20. So it wasn't just Haley, it was a huge majority in both houses. I don't know the exact breakdown of votes, but this was generally seen as bipartisan.

Beyond that ... this looks like an emotional appeal to culture wars, without any explanation of why preserving the Confederate flag over the South Carolina Statehouse would be a good thing, especially in the aftermath of the Dylann Roof tragedy. The argument seems to be basically that we should hate the left, therefore we should keep the Confederate flag. And that's not a logical argument at all.

Haley's speech gives her reasons, and I think her reasons are very sound. If a significant percent of the population sees it primarily as a symbol of oppression and hate, and violent extremists adopt it as their own symbol, why do you think it is important for it to fly over the Statehouse?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby ken_sylvania » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:43 pm

temporal1 wrote:coincidentally, i just stumbled across this quote, it was stand-alone, no context or date .. but, it reminded me a bit more of the response to obama's exploitation of the Dylann Roof tragedy .. which, i believe Trump is referring to here:
Nikki Haley was the first recent person to accept the unacceptable action of the left, and remove a symbol.

Now she herself can be pointed to as the reason for the left thinking their actions will get results...BECAUSE THEY DO!

And you see now, why I think her appointment to the u.n is a disgusting betrayal.
Donald J. Trump
boot, you are very good at locating quotes made by liberal RNC reps, then using them as examples of what all conservatives believe+want, when, in fact, they are highly criticized within the group.

FWIW, this is not a quote from Donald J. Trump. John Greenwood posted this on Facebook yesterday. I would not want to be associated with John Greenwood.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:47 pm

ken_sylvania wrote:FWIW, this is not a quote from Donald J. Trump. John Greenwood posted this on Facebook yesterday. I would not want to be associated with John Greenwood.


Is that his real name? If so, it also happens to be the name of George Washington's dentist!

Dr. John Greenwood (May 17, 1760 – November 16, 1819) was an American fifer and dentist, serving as George Washington's personal dentist. He was responsible for designing Washington's famous dentures, which were not wood but carved from hippopotamus tusk. He invented the first known "dental foot engine" in 1790.


How about a hippopotamus tusk denture monument? Or a dental foot engine monument?
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PeterG
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Re: Monumental Differences - Lee vs. Grant vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln

Postby PeterG » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:59 pm

+1 for the dental foot engine monument!
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