Antifa

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Robert
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Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:52 am

Szdfan wrote:That's not fair, Robert. I don't have a cushy, ivory-tower life. You don't know me and what I live with. I don't understand why you'd accuse me of these things. This to me feels like a personal attack that's unrelated to the issues we're talking about.


I was going on what you have shared before. If I am wrong, then I recant and apologize. I was only reflecting the upbringing and life you have reflected and shared through the years.

In all fairness, I only claimed you had a cushy life. Growing up in a sheltered conservative Mennonite community with your needs and most your wants cared for is a cushy life to me. I did not claim you lived in a pristine ivy tower. I stated I did not look at life from one.

Szdfan wrote:I posted what I did about Trump on FB because this is personal for me -- people who I love and care about are threatened and some of them have faced physical violence by those who feel empowered by the President's words.


So it is okay for you to launch personal attacks and I can not?

I would like to hear examples of the physical violence by those empowered by the President's words. I heard him condemn the violence and discredit the people who organized the rally.

Here is an image if Antifa at Charlottesville.

Image

Image

Image

Image

This is why I feel the statements that both sides are to blame are legitimate.
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I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

Robert
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Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:59 am

I have not validated this story, but feel I can share it with clarification that I have not found it in several sources.

The Democrat terror group Antifa showed up in Charlottesville, Virgina to do what they always do….

Incite violence and beat innocents.

A female reporter from The Hill discovered this truth the hard way when she was attempting to film the pandemonium.

A shirtless Antifa member approached her and demanded she turn off the recorder, and when she refused he hauled off and punched her.


A good link to learn about Antifa.

http://wqad.com/2017/08/17/what-is-antifa/
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I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:31 am

RZehr wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I wonder if our responses would be different if they had done this in Goshen, targeting Mennonites.

I'm certain that we would feel very, very scared and we would have strong feelings against the Nazis.


We wouldn't want Antifa defending us either, of course. But if the Nazis hadn't staged a rally clearly designed to intimidate people, Antifa wouldn't have been there either.

I think Caesar needs to loudly say that we don't need Antifa, because the civil government will keep things under control. I haven't heard that message yet. I think Caesar needs to say that it is a priority to protect Jews and blacks and make sure that all Americans can feel safe in their hometowns, and tell us what his plan is. As part of that, Caesar needs to say that we won't tolerate violence on either side.

As Bible-believing Christians, we need to clearly reject the claims of white supremacists who claim to be preaching a biblical form of Christianity. We also need to clearly reject violence on both sides.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:26 am

So it is okay for you to launch personal attacks and I can not?


Hmmm, can we avoid a race to the bottom, and just drop personal attacks?

Robert wrote:Here is an image if Antifa at Charlottesville.
!!! SNIP !!!
This is why I feel the statements that both sides are to blame are legitimate.


I'd like to avoid whataboutism. Clearly, violence is wrong on both sides. We don't want Antifa defending us by violence. We don't need competing militias on the streets, that's a recipe for disaster.

But one group is threatening people who are not white, calling them "genetic refuse", using tiki torches, swastikas, confederate flags, KKK symbolism, guns, paramilitary uniforms, etc. to scare people. Using the threat of violence to scare people.

The other group is using violence to oppose the first group. They didn't stage the rally, they came to it to oppose what it stands for. They are not threatening all whites or Republicans or preaching hatred against people of a specific race, they are specifically targeting extremists who pose a threat. I think that just fans the flames, and the government should crack down on it too. But they aren't threatening the general public, they aren't preaching racial hatred, they are not using Nazi and KKK symbolism to scare people. Those are ways they are not equivalent.

So we should oppose both groups. But if we want to be even handed, we need to speak just as much about the sins that they do not both share.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

Hats Off
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Re: Antifa

Postby Hats Off » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:23 am

Obviously both groups have a desire to rule by force, rendering governments and legal authorities helpless, if you can believe what you read. Certainly the activities of both sides would indicate this to be the case. As Christians we cannot afford to be aligned or seem to be aligned to one or the other group. We need to learn from the Mennonite experience in Germany where they saw things that they agreed with and sided with the Nazis. Today some Anabaptists would be inclined to take one side and some the other but hopefully the majority will realize the foolishness of taking either side.
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Dan Z
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Re: Antifa

Postby Dan Z » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:09 am

I think it must be possible to disavow the violence and errant ideologies of both radical anarchists on the left and militant white nationalists on the right - but unfortunately it can't be done credibly by ideologues pointing out the faults that lie on the other side of the ideological spectrum. It is all so ugly and wrong!

What I see here on MN and on my Facebook feed is, predictably, my conservative-minded friends trying to offset the imbalance of Charlottsville outrage they perceive in the media and on the left by pointing out the concurrent sins of radical groups like Antifa, noting, like the president did, that there were misdeeds on both sides. The problem is that this approach looks self-serving at best (in defense of the reputation of one's party/ideology) and at worst it looks like a tacit justification of white supremacists ideals and tactics.

And at the same time, my liberal-leaning friends are outraged over the events of Charlottsville, sharing videos of Nazi flags and salutes, and pointing out the violent intolerance, racism and hate of the extreme right...noting the president's moral weakness in failing to condemn white nationalism on their timing and to their satisfaction - and at the same time extolling the virtues of most of the counter-protesters (and downplaying the violence on the left). Again, the problem here is that this ultimately looks more like political gamesmanship than moral outrage - aimed at further weakening the president and his party.

So how does one respond to societal hatred and violence like that which was on display in Charlottsville last weekend?

Here are a few possibilities:

    1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

    2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;)).
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haithabu
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Re: Antifa

Postby haithabu » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:35 am

Maybe there is something to be said after all for being "the quiet in the land".

Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.
Proverns 10:19
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Antifa

Postby ken_sylvania » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:36 am

Dan Z wrote:If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better......

Interestingly, a person who tries to do this tends to immediately be accused of being "on the other side."
I've been pondering the last couple days how difficult it is to really have a meaningful discussion about these politically sensitive issues with individuals we don't have an existing relationship with - even with fellow Christians.
Last edited by ken_sylvania on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mike
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Re: Antifa

Postby mike » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:36 am

Dan Z wrote:So how does one respond to societal hatred and violence like that which was on display in Charlottsville last weekend?

Here are a few possibilities:

    1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

    2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;)).


Very good, Dan. As to 1), I believe in addressing the wrongs of both "houses." All violence belongs outside of the kingdom of Christ. I desire to adhere to 2). And about your last sentence, for sure. I remember the MD days with the moronic avatars of some users depicting Obama as a ghoul or clown, the incessant political debates and put-downs of the left and President Obama. And now the tables are precisely reversed. We are seeing the very same bitterness and vitriol that the right had for Obama in the left's attitude toward Trump. It could not have been more predictable. As I mentioned elsewhere, participating in political discussions like Charlottesville from a Christian perspective is like trying to pick a turd up by the clean end.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3

Robert
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Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:39 am

Bootstrap wrote:Hmmm, can we avoid a race to the bottom, and just drop personal attacks?


So no more cushy life comments? Come on. You have to admit it was somewhat funny. My wife tells me I had a cushy life too. Compared to hers, I did.

Bootstrap wrote:Clearly, violence is wrong on both sides. We don't want Antifa defending us by violence. We don't need competing militias on the streets, that's a recipe for disaster.


Yep, and is exactly what happened.

Bootstrap wrote:But one group is threatening people who are not white, calling them "genetic refuse", using tiki torches, swastikas, confederate flags, KKK symbolism, guns, paramilitary uniforms, etc. to scare people. Using the threat of violence to scare people.


And that sickness is hidden behind the cloud of violence used against them. This was MLK's goal that actually worked. He allowed the other side's violence and injustice to show.

Bootstrap wrote:They are not threatening all whites or Republicans or preaching hatred against people of a specific race, they are specifically targeting extremists who pose a threat.


They are targeting those who they perceive as a threat. This same group has shut down several speakers they disagreed with. This is totalitarianism. This fascism that they claim to stand against.

Bootstrap wrote:But they aren't threatening the general public, they aren't preaching racial hatred, they are not using Nazi and KKK symbolism to scare people. Those are ways they are not equivalent.


Rioting and destroying public property is threatening the general public. They are making death threats to those they disagree with. I see it as just as wrong. The Neo-Nazis are doing the exact same, just targeting different people. Antifa is not all truistic. Many are anarchist and communists that are just trying to bring as much disruption into our system as they can. Read Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. It is their playbook.

The Rules
"Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." Power is derived from 2 main sources – money and people. "Have-Nots" must build power from flesh and blood.
"Never go outside the expertise of your people." It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone.
"Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty.
"Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules." If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
"A good tactic is one your people enjoy." They'll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They're doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones.
"A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag." Don't become old news.
"Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new.
"The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist.
"The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition." It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign.
"If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog.
"The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." Never let the enemy score points because you're caught without a solution to the problem.
"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.


Bootstrap wrote:So we should oppose both groups.


My exact point and also the President's point. Seems you agree with him. You must be a white supremacisty thing. Do you feel yourself being drawn to the dark side? Soon you will add #MAGG to your signature. Then I will have to flip and take the other side! See what you make me do?
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Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.


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