Antifa

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
GaryK
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Georgia
Affiliation: Unaffiliated CAB

Re: Antifa

Postby GaryK » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:44 pm

Sudsy wrote:
GaryK wrote:
I think the best way to to begin a conversation about an event like Charlottesville is to not begin with Charlottesville and work backward to see what all went wrong to bring us to a point like Charlottesville. Rather we should start from the premise that human beings without Jesus always have and always will act like they did in Charlottesville. It's not something new. The solution is not ultimately a political one. When Christians pretty much say what politicians, journalists, and ideologues say on issues like this, regardless of the side, I think there is a fundamental problem with understanding the nature of the Kingdom where Jesus is King.

John D Martin says something like this: "Our job as followers of Jesus is to show the world what it would look like if the whole world would follow the teachings of Jesus".


I think this is heading in the right direction GaryK if we really want to consider what we should be doing. I would add in showing the world we need to be involved in explaining to the world who Jesus is and why He is the solution to these situations. Why is it that Anabaptists here are not focusing in on the sin issue that plagues mankind ? This occurrence is just one of many manifestations of sin and it's destructive force.

How can we insist on leaders speaking out against certain forms of sin when we, ourselves, are too afraid to speak out and share the solution to the sin problem. Do we really believe Jesus gives us power over sin now, delivers us from death that sin will bring and He will, some day, remove us from the very presence of sin ? If we do, then isn't this what the Gospel is all about ?

Jesus is our King and the nature of His Kingdom is to overcome sin and enter a life now of love, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. We don't have to get involved in how the world deals with this issue for we know their answers will not solve the base problem and can only provide, at best, temporary band aid solutions.

Perhaps I've been in an evangelical environment too long over the years to be Anabaptist. I'm trying to figure out just what Anabaptists really believe about reaching the lost. Perhaps someone can help clear up my thinking here ? It just seems to me that the answer is obvious in what we are to do.

If Charlottesville points to a fundamental need in unsaved people's lives then it's the unsaved that we should be focused on rather than the huge issue that is now Charlottesville. My opining on what should have/could have been in Charlottesville really can't and won't fix what has been a common problem for millennia as first evidenced in the book of Genesis. If we are sold on this idea that the Kingdom of Jesus is the answer to humanity's underlying need then we WILL be involved in showing the other kingdom what a Kingdom of Christ followers is like and we will be busy trying to bring others into this Kingdom.

The next Charlottesville could be Thomaston, GA. If I can be instrumental in pointing one or two people toward this Kingdom, that's one or two more in Thomaston that have joined a cause that shows the TRUE way of peace. Who knows but that those one or two more could be what keeps Charlottesville from happening in Thomaston. That's something no president, political party or secular group can ever accomplish. And history has proven quite clearly IMO that the hybrid of having one foot in one kingdom and one in the other doesn't accomplish it either.
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Dan Z
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: CMC

Re: Antifa

Postby Dan Z » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:36 pm

Bootstrap wrote:What does that look like in practice? How can we do better at discussing Charlottesville?

I really do think we should have some response to this kind of event if we are going to be peacemakers in any serious sense of the word. It probably won't be a mostly political response. It probably won't be confrontational. But what do we do?

And how do we make room to seriously debate our best response without shredding each other?


    1) Let's live and articulate our faith in such a way that there is no doubt that Christ calls us to affirm the intrinsic (sacred) value of every one of God's children. Before I would say anything, I would hope people would think - "I know Dan and how he lives. He takes Jesus' teaching literally. His beliefs would never allow him to approve of Neo-Nazis, white militia, that 'blood and soil' garbage, or any other forms of violence, racism, or oppression." "Oh, and I also know he would say that Jesus wouldn't have much appreciation for those club wielding Antifa anarchists and their rebellious "black bloc" tactics."

    2) This issue is so politicized - like GaryK said, entering in with an opinion gets you accused of "taking sides" - which I really don't want to do. On the other hand, having no opinion on public issues of morality is keeping your light under a bushel. People need to understand WWJD so they can know Jesus better - so while I try to stay as politically unattached as possible, I do speak speak mainly to moral issues (in a spiritual context) - wherever the ideological chips may fall. "White supremacy - wrong " - "Violence - wrong" - "Looting - wrong" - "Angry shouting - wrong" - "Standing with the oppressed, the poor, the mistreated, the marginalized - absolutely."

    3) Frankly, I think it is a much better witness to be proactive rather than reactive. Rather than fighting against white supremacists or anarchistic activists, I could be extending Christ's love and friendship to those of other ethnicities. Not saying we shouldn't speak out - but our actions will speak the loudest.
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appleman2006
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: Antifa

Postby appleman2006 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:35 pm

Hats Off wrote:Obviously both groups have a desire to rule by force, rendering governments and legal authorities helpless, if you can believe what you read. Certainly the activities of both sides would indicate this to be the case. As Christians we cannot afford to be aligned or seem to be aligned to one or the other group. We need to learn from the Mennonite experience in Germany where they saw things that they agreed with and sided with the Nazis. Today some Anabaptists would be inclined to take one side and some the other but hopefully the majority will realize the foolishness of taking either side.


Well said.
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appleman2006
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: Antifa

Postby appleman2006 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Dan Z wrote:I think it must be possible to disavow the violence and errant ideologies of both radical anarchists on the left and militant white nationalists on the right - but unfortunately it can't be done credibly by ideologues pointing out the faults that lie on the other side of the ideological spectrum. It is all so ugly and wrong!

What I see here on MN and on my Facebook feed is, predictably, my conservative-minded friends trying to offset the imbalance of Charlottsville outrage they perceive in the media and on the left by pointing out the concurrent sins of radical groups like Antifa, noting, like the president did, that there were misdeeds on both sides. The problem is that this approach looks self-serving at best (in defense of the reputation of one's party/ideology) and at worst it looks like a tacit justification of white supremacists ideals and tactics.

And at the same time, my liberal-leaning friends are outraged over the events of Charlottsville, sharing videos of Nazi flags and salutes, and pointing out the violent intolerance, racism and hate of the extreme right...noting the president's moral weakness in failing to condemn white nationalism on their timing and to their satisfaction - and at the same time extolling the virtues of most of the counter-protesters (and downplaying the violence on the left). Again, the problem here is that this ultimately looks more like political gamesmanship than moral outrage - aimed at further weakening the president and his party.

So how does one respond to societal hatred and violence like that which was on display in Charlottsville last weekend?

Here are a few possibilities:

    1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

    2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;)).


Also very well said. Thanks.
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appleman2006
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: Antifa

Postby appleman2006 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:49 pm

Bootstrap wrote:
Obama wrote:First and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law. And so we need to accept that this decision was the grand jury’s to make. There are Americans who agree with it, and there are Americans who are deeply disappointed, even angry. It’s an understandable reaction. But I join Michael’s parents in asking anyone who protests this decision to do so peacefully. Let me repeat Michael’s father’s words: “Hurting others or destroying property is not the answer. No matter what the grand jury decides, I do not want my son’s death to be in vain. I want it to lead to incredible change, positive change, change that makes the St. Louis region better for everyone.” Michael Brown’s parents have lost more than anyone. We should be honoring their wishes.

I also appeal to the law enforcement officials in Ferguson and the region to show care and restraint in managing peaceful protests that may occur. Understand, our police officers put their lives on the line for us every single day. They’ve got a tough job to do to maintain public safety and hold accountable those who break the law. As they do their jobs in the coming days, they need to work with the community, not against the community, to distinguish the handful of people who may use the grand jury’s decision as an excuse for violence -- distinguish them from the vast majority who just want their voices heard around legitimate issues in terms of how communities and law enforcement interact.

Finally, we need to recognize that the situation in Ferguson speaks to broader challenges that we still face as a nation. The fact is, in too many parts of this country, a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. Some of this is the result of the legacy of racial discrimination in this country. And this is tragic, because nobody needs good policing more than poor communities with higher crime rates. The good news is we know there are things we can do to help. And I’ve instructed Attorney General Holder to work with cities across the country to help build better relations between communities and law enforcement.


Very very interesting. Other than the fact that he is much more polished than what Trump is which is not a bad thing I see very little difference in how they approached this. President Obama could also been accused of putting a "but" into this speech and probably was by some. It all depends on the colour of your glasses I am afraid. Anyway for what it is worth I think this was a good speech made by Obama.
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Robert
Site Janitor
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:11 pm

When will these counter protests end? I grow tired if it all.

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I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

Robert
Site Janitor
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
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Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:20 pm

And yet more.

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0 x
I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

Sudsy
Posts: 960
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Location: Leamington, Ontario
Affiliation: Mennonite Brethren

Re: Antifa

Postby Sudsy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:37 pm

Robert wrote:When will these counter protests end? I grow tired if it all.

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I guess they are not too chicken to demonstrate. Wonder what they are crowing about.
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Sudsy
Posts: 960
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Location: Leamington, Ontario
Affiliation: Mennonite Brethren

Re: Antifa

Postby Sudsy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:42 pm

Robert wrote:And yet more.

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Love that comment - 'it was predestined to happen'. Well, I guess I shouldn't make jokes as it does reflect a worldly approach to treating others.
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Joy
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Under His wings

Re: Antifa

Postby Joy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:42 pm

Robert wrote:When will these counter protests end? I grow tired if it all.

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And at Church, too! Fie, for shame.
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2Tim. 3:16,17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


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