Antifa

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
appleman2006
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Re: Antifa

Postby appleman2006 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:48 am

I hesitate to say a lot more on this. I do want to be sensitive to minority groups that have been hurt by racism in the past and are still feeling hurt by it in some areas. I was born a white male not by choice but that is the lot I was given. I was raised in a home where any type of discrimination was so looked down on that even the thought of it was an almost foreign concept to me in my little sheltered world until I was much older.

And so I recoil at racism at all levels and will not even pretend to claim that I can identify.

But and yes there is a but.... When it comes to most of the protests that I am seeing now I simply get a real uneasy feeling. And I am hearing more and more minorities that are getting the same feeling. They do not see Antifa as speaking for them at all. They see their agenda as something very different. Tear all the Robert Lee statues down and I guarantee that next week it will be George Washington or Jefferson or maybe anther tactic completely.

I have said more than enough. Think I will go back to praying.
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Robert
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Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:18 pm

appleman2006 wrote:Tear all the Robert Lee statues down and I guarantee that next week it will be George Washington or Jefferson or maybe anther tactic completely.


I can see them as different if we learn the history of some, not all, of the Confederate war statues. Some where put up during the Jim Crow era. They were put up as an intimidation or remembrance of what was. I really have no issue with their removal. If some want to place them on private locations, or local museums, I think that is a good idea.

I am also glad that the Stalin statue was removed. I think this shows consistency, but I personally care less about any of these statues. Many modern minorities feel the same. I see the statues as more an excuse then an issue. I also now that it was communists that tore down the one Lee statue. They used the conflicts as an excuse to bring division and turmoil into our interactions. Antifa may play the protector, but they have other agendas. Any group that forcefully shuts down free speech is fascist in nature. The exact thing they claim to be against.

I learned a long time ago ... Just because they say it, it doesn't make it so.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:35 pm

appleman2006 wrote:When it comes to most of the protests that I am seeing now I simply get a real uneasy feeling. And I am hearing more and more minorities that are getting the same feeling. They do not see Antifa as speaking for them at all. They see their agenda as something very different.


Of course they don't. Anarchism and communism aren't very popular in the United States. And I really don't get the sense that most of the counter-protesters were Antifa. When the Boston police commissioner says that the vast majority came for the right reasons, he's not talking about Antifa.

Opposing white supremacy, the KKK, and Nazis is a mainstream position, not some extreme agenda that only anarchists and communists believe in. So by all means, let's steer clear from Antifa. But let's also have sympathy for people who want to be able to live in their homes without armed groups running around with Swastikas and hoods trying to provoke people. That's something almost all minorities want. And all whites. All people.

appleman2006 wrote:Tear all the Robert Lee statues down and I guarantee that next week it will be George Washington or Jefferson or maybe another tactic completely.


Huh? It was the City of Charlottesville that decided to take the statue down, not Antifa. And if you think Charlottesville would tear down the statues of Jefferson, you don't know much about Charlottesville, a city that takes American history much more seriously than most places in America, very close to Monticello, with a university that is one of the best in American history.

And I really do think that cities should be able to make their own decisions about what they want in public parks. Without being intimidated by outsiders. That's the much bigger issue.
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appleman2006
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Re: Antifa

Postby appleman2006 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:41 pm

Wait and see. Already heard one person calling very emphatically for there removal on CNN. The rhetoric has to be constantly ramped up with these groups. The minute they win in one area they move on to the next.
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PeterG
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Re: Antifa

Postby PeterG » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:14 pm

It seems like some people feel threatened by one side, other people feel threatened by the other side, and everybody just wants to talk about how justified their feelings are.

(I generalize, of course.)
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Antifa

Postby ken_sylvania » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:27 pm

Bootstrap wrote:Huh? It was the City of Charlottesville that decided to take the statue down, not Antifa. And if you think Charlottesville would tear down the statues of Jefferson, you don't know much about Charlottesville, a city that takes American history much more seriously than most places in America, very close to Monticello, with a university that is one of the best in American history.

I admit I don't know very much about Charlottesville. Jefferson's and Washington's ownership of slaves has come under scrutiny a number of times in the past. I'm curious why you are so confident that they would not become the focal point of protests calling for the removal of their statues? I believe Monticello has been working diligently over the last few years to uncover some of the details about slavery as it related to Jefferson and his estate. Do you think this will make a difference on how statues of him are treated?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:17 pm

ken_sylvania wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Huh? It was the City of Charlottesville that decided to take the statue down, not Antifa. And if you think Charlottesville would tear down the statues of Jefferson, you don't know much about Charlottesville, a city that takes American history much more seriously than most places in America, very close to Monticello, with a university that is one of the best in American history.

I admit I don't know very much about Charlottesville. Jefferson's and Washington's ownership of slaves has come under scrutiny a number of times in the past. I'm curious why you are so confident that they would not become the focal point of protests calling for the removal of their statues? I believe Monticello has been working diligently over the last few years to uncover some of the details about slavery as it related to Jefferson and his estate. Do you think this will make a difference on how statues of him are treated?


I have heard historians from Charlottesville talk about this in the Backstory Radio shows, and I think it would. A lot of that has to do with the actual history and the role of these figures in the events of their day. Give me a one sentence summary of who Robert E Lee was. He was a rebel who fought the American government in a bloody war over whether to enslave Americans. A one-sentence summary of who Jefferson was or who Washington was probably would not mention slaves at all, and neither of them were leaders of a rebellion against the American government. And both Jefferson and Washington had much more complicated relationships with slavery.

Some historians would really prefer that we add more statues to tell the whole story. Add a statue of Ulysses S. Grant and a statue of Abraham Lincoln, for instance. But I think that would spark a whole lot of controversy too. After all, the real meaning of the Robert E Lee statue is probably the myth of the Noble Cause, in the time after "The Birth of a Nation", in the Jim Crow era. And there's no way on earth that there is too for Lincoln or Grant in these parks. I kind of scratch my head when people suggest that taking down a secular monument that white supremacists basically worship would be a form of idolatry.

Should we explore this in a separate thread? It has very little to do with Antifa. The Charlottesville City Council is not an Antifa hotbed, and I really doubt that either Antifa or the white ring extremists have much say in what Charlottesville decides on these matters. I certainly hope not. That should be up to Charlottesville. And there are certainly many cities that will not remove such monuments.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Antifa

Postby ken_sylvania » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:40 pm

Bootstrap wrote:Should we explore this in a separate thread? It has very little to do with Antifa. The Charlottesville City Council is not an Antifa hotbed, and I really doubt that either Antifa or the white ring extremists have much say in what Charlottesville decides on these matters. I certainly hope not. That should be up to Charlottesville. And there are certainly many cities that will not remove such monuments.

Monumental Differences
It does seem that whatever the "flavor of the month" is for violent protests is the issue that governments across the country make a show of addressing. That is maybe the most influence that Antifa or WN extremists have on Charlottesville City Council.
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ohio jones
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Re: Antifa

Postby ohio jones » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:54 pm

Bootstrap wrote:A one-sentence summary of who Jefferson was or who Washington was probably would not mention slaves at all, and neither of them were leaders of a rebellion against the American government.

Both of them were leaders of a rebellion against the British government. Is that really so different?
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appleman2006
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Re: Antifa

Postby appleman2006 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:56 pm

ohio jones wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:A one-sentence summary of who Jefferson was or who Washington was probably would not mention slaves at all, and neither of them were leaders of a rebellion against the American government.

Both of them were leaders of a rebellion against the British government. Is that really so different?


:)
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