Antifa

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
PeterG
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Re: Antifa

Postby PeterG » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:58 am

What Dan said x10.
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Szdfan
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Re: Antifa

Postby Szdfan » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:08 am

Dan Z wrote:[list]1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

Dan, could you provide a link to the MLK piece? Both links are for the Reagan speech.

Robert, friend, let me process before I get back to you.
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Dan Z
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Re: Antifa

Postby Dan Z » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:17 am

Szdfan wrote:
Dan Z wrote:[list]1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

Dan, could you provide a link to the MLK piece? Both links are for the Reagan speech.


Oops...corrected - try the kinks now (MK King on Non-Violence)
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Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:24 am

Dan Z wrote:I think it must be possible to disavow the violence and errant ideologies of both radical anarchists on the left and militant white nationalists on the right - but unfortunately it can't be done credibly by ideologues pointing out the faults that lie on the other side of the ideological spectrum. It is all so ugly and wrong!


I agree. Now part of what's baffling about this is that when I think I'm doing that, some others think I look like a political ideologue with a mostly political agenda.

Dan Z wrote:And at the same time, my liberal-leaning friends are outraged over the events of Charlottsville, sharing videos of Nazi flags and salutes, and pointing out the violent intolerance, racism and hate of the extreme right...noting the president's moral weakness in failing to condemn white nationalism on their timing and to their satisfaction - and at the same time extolling the virtues of most of the counter-protesters (and downplaying the violence on the left). Again, the problem here is that this ultimately looks more like political gamesmanship than moral outrage - aimed at further weakening the president and his party.


I definitely have friends that I see that way. If you look at the OP, I started this thread by speaking out against Antifa and violence from the left. I think I've been consistent about this.

For instance:

mike wrote:I remember the MD days with the moronic avatars of some users depicting Obama as a ghoul or clown, the incessant political debates and put-downs of the left and President Obama. And now the tables are precisely reversed. We are seeing the very same bitterness and vitriol that the right had for Obama in the left's attitude toward Trump. It could not have been more predictable. As I mentioned elsewhere, participating in political discussions like Charlottesville from a Christian perspective is like trying to pick a turd up by the clean end.


I think the main thing I have been saying about Trump is that he should make the same kind of statement that almost any other president would make. I really, really hope I never descend into the kind of hatred you describe there. I can guarantee you that you will never see me change my avatar to mock the president.

If you remember, I actually tried to keep Obama and Trump out of this at first. I really don't think that our response as Christians is rooted in the culture wars. FWIW, it's interesting to think about the phrase "a political discussion like Charlottesville". Can we have a discussion about Charlottesville that does not revolve around partisan politics? I think I'm trying to do that. Obviously, many don't see it that way. I imagine some people are just as baffled by me as I am by them.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:27 am

Dan Z wrote:Oops...corrected - try the kinks now (MK King on Non-Violence)


Kinks?

At any rate, I really like the sounds of this:

Dan Z wrote:So how does one respond to societal hatred and violence like that which was on display in Charlottsville last weekend?

Here are a few possibilities:

    1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

    2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;)).


What does that look like in practice? How can we do better at discussing Charlottesville?

I really do think we should have some response to this kind of event if we are going to be peacemakers in any serious sense of the word. It probably won't be a mostly political response. It probably won't be confrontational. But what do we do?

And how do we make room to seriously debate our best response without shredding each other?
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GaryK
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Re: Antifa

Postby GaryK » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:11 pm

Bootstrap wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Oops...corrected - try the kinks now (MK King on Non-Violence)


Kinks?

At any rate, I really like the sounds of this:

Dan Z wrote:So how does one respond to societal hatred and violence like that which was on display in Charlottsville last weekend?

Here are a few possibilities:

    1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

    2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;)).


What does that look like in practice? How can we do better at discussing Charlottesville?

I really do think we should have some response to this kind of event if we are going to be peacemakers in any serious sense of the word. It probably won't be a mostly political response. It probably won't be confrontational. But what do we do?

And how do we make room to seriously debate our best response without shredding each other?

I think the best way to to begin a conversation about an event like Charlottesville is to not begin with Charlottesville and work backward to see what all went wrong to bring us to a point like Charlottesville. Rather we should start from the premise that human beings without Jesus always have and always will act like they did in Charlottesville. It's not something new. The solution is not ultimately a political one. When Christians pretty much say what politicians, journalists, and ideologues say on issues like this, regardless of the side, I think there is a fundamental problem with understanding the nature of the Kingdom where Jesus is King.

John D Martin says something like this: "Our job as followers of Jesus is to show the world what it would look like if the whole world would follow the teachings of Jesus".
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Robert
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Re: Antifa

Postby Robert » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:26 pm

Bootstrap wrote:I think the main thing I have been saying about Trump is that he should make the same kind of statement that almost any other president would make. I really, really hope I never descend into the kind of hatred you describe there. I can guarantee you that you will never see me change my avatar to mock the president.


Did you, do you think President Obama should speak out and distance himself from Black Lives Matter and Antifa? They both endorsed him.

My issue is consistency. If we are really a third way, should we not call for both sides to do the same?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Antifa

Postby Bootstrap » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:31 pm

Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I think the main thing I have been saying about Trump is that he should make the same kind of statement that almost any other president would make. I really, really hope I never descend into the kind of hatred you describe there. I can guarantee you that you will never see me change my avatar to mock the president.


Did you, do you think President Obama should speak out and distance himself from Black Lives Matter and Antifa? They both endorsed him.


Squirrel! I would really, really like to avoid changing the topic to a culture war around Obama, but let's give this a try.

Here's the kind of thing that Obama said in situations like this. I would be happy with a similar speech from Trump.

Obama wrote:First and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law. And so we need to accept that this decision was the grand jury’s to make. There are Americans who agree with it, and there are Americans who are deeply disappointed, even angry. It’s an understandable reaction. But I join Michael’s parents in asking anyone who protests this decision to do so peacefully. Let me repeat Michael’s father’s words: “Hurting others or destroying property is not the answer. No matter what the grand jury decides, I do not want my son’s death to be in vain. I want it to lead to incredible change, positive change, change that makes the St. Louis region better for everyone.” Michael Brown’s parents have lost more than anyone. We should be honoring their wishes.

I also appeal to the law enforcement officials in Ferguson and the region to show care and restraint in managing peaceful protests that may occur. Understand, our police officers put their lives on the line for us every single day. They’ve got a tough job to do to maintain public safety and hold accountable those who break the law. As they do their jobs in the coming days, they need to work with the community, not against the community, to distinguish the handful of people who may use the grand jury’s decision as an excuse for violence -- distinguish them from the vast majority who just want their voices heard around legitimate issues in terms of how communities and law enforcement interact.

Finally, we need to recognize that the situation in Ferguson speaks to broader challenges that we still face as a nation. The fact is, in too many parts of this country, a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. Some of this is the result of the legacy of racial discrimination in this country. And this is tragic, because nobody needs good policing more than poor communities with higher crime rates. The good news is we know there are things we can do to help. And I’ve instructed Attorney General Holder to work with cities across the country to help build better relations between communities and law enforcement.
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Joy
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Re: Antifa

Postby Joy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:04 pm

I'm not very political, nor do I really keep up with the news. So I didn't know what was going on in Charlottesville until I saw a rally in Indianapolis, and someone explained what it had to do with the former.

Several years ago a hate organization came to my town trying to inflame groups over a death, not, apparently, a hate crime. They held a march, but among the locals who joined the march, there was too much fraternizing with the enemy (the police) as they marched--talking and joking--for hatred to be stirred up. From what I heard, the attempt fell flat. :clap:
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Sudsy
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sudsy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:58 pm

GaryK wrote:
I think the best way to to begin a conversation about an event like Charlottesville is to not begin with Charlottesville and work backward to see what all went wrong to bring us to a point like Charlottesville. Rather we should start from the premise that human beings without Jesus always have and always will act like they did in Charlottesville. It's not something new. The solution is not ultimately a political one. When Christians pretty much say what politicians, journalists, and ideologues say on issues like this, regardless of the side, I think there is a fundamental problem with understanding the nature of the Kingdom where Jesus is King.

John D Martin says something like this: "Our job as followers of Jesus is to show the world what it would look like if the whole world would follow the teachings of Jesus".


I think this is heading in the right direction GaryK if we really want to consider what we should be doing. I would add in showing the world we need to be involved in explaining to the world who Jesus is and why He is the solution to these situations. Why is it that Anabaptists here are not focusing in on the sin issue that plagues mankind ? This occurrence is just one of many manifestations of sin and it's destructive force.

How can we insist on leaders speaking out against certain forms of sin when we, ourselves, are too afraid to speak out and share the solution to the sin problem. Do we really believe Jesus gives us power over sin now, delivers us from death that sin will bring and He will, some day, remove us from the very presence of sin ? If we do, then isn't this what the Gospel is all about ?

Jesus is our King and the nature of His Kingdom is to overcome sin and enter a life now of love, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. We don't have to get involved in how the world deals with this issue for we know their answers will not solve the base problem and can only provide, at best, temporary band aid solutions.

Perhaps I've been in an evangelical environment too long over the years to be Anabaptist. I'm trying to figure out just what Anabaptists really believe about reaching the lost. Perhaps someone can help clear up my thinking here ? It just seems to me that the answer is obvious in what we are to do.
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