Errors in moral reasoning

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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haithabu
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by haithabu »

Bootstrap wrote:
1) That moral responsibility is a zero sum game.
The problem with this is that it forgets who the two sides are in the main event. The two sides are the Nazis, KKK, and white supremacists versus the citizens of Charlottesville that they wanted to intimidate. Let's call them the oppressors versus the victims. And the victims were not morally equivalent to the people who threatened and intimidated them. There were also people who fought back to protect the victims. That probably just poured fuel on the fire, and it was a really bad idea.

But let's not forget the people who were threatened and intimidated. Leaving them out of the picture is a huge "error in moral reasoning". And it's a huge error in Christian compassion.

Actually I see the supremacists and Antifa as being on the same side. Even though their ideologies are opposed, they are objectively allies because they are cooperating together to achieve the same goal: to create polarization through violence. A pox on both their houses because neither of them is on my side. I think that people really have to get away from the idea that this is a beauty contest where you have to declare a winner.

Antifa has a long history of attacking anyone whom they deem to be a "fascist", and they are pretty indiscriminate about who they consider to be one. I have had a growing concern about this for awhile, because in my view they are Brownshirts in everything but name.

This frames my approach to the situation in Charlottesville. The Nazis are a known quantity and have been marginal ever since the war. On the other hand the culture of political violence promoted by Antifa is new and growing with hordes of sympathizers on the left (some of them Mennonites who should know better!). As long as they restricted their tactics to outright Nazis I didn't mind too much, but since the election they have been attacking pretty much anybody on the right who dares to have a demonstration or even public meeting or rally.

And now because of the moral panic which Charlottesville began, I am afraid that they will be emboldened even more. It is my apprehension that the left in the US will be using Charlottesville as a sort of Reichstag fire issue against conservatives.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
1) That moral responsibility is a zero sum game.
The problem with this is that it forgets who the two sides are in the main event. The two sides are the Nazis, KKK, and white supremacists versus the citizens of Charlottesville that they wanted to intimidate. Let's call them the oppressors versus the victims. And the victims were not morally equivalent to the people who threatened and intimidated them. There were also people who fought back to protect the victims. That probably just poured fuel on the fire, and it was a really bad idea.

But let's not forget the people who were threatened and intimidated. Leaving them out of the picture is a huge "error in moral reasoning". And it's a huge error in Christian compassion.

Actually I see the supremacists and Antifa as being on the same side. Even though their ideologies are opposed, they are objectively allies because they are cooperating together to achieve the same goal: to create polarization through violence. A pox on both their houses because neither of them is on my side. I think that people really have to get away from the idea that this is a beauty contest where you have to declare a winner.
I think that's a good perspective.
haithabu wrote:Antifa has a long history of attacking anyone whom they deem to be a "fascist", and they are pretty indiscriminate about who they consider to be one. I have had a growing concern about this for awhile, because in my view they are Brownshirts in everything but name.

This frames my approach to the situation in Charlottesville. The Nazis are a known quantity and have been marginal ever since the war. On the other hand the culture of political violence promoted by Antifa is new and growing with hordes of sympathizers on the left (some of them Mennonites who should know better!). As long as they restricted their tactics to outright Nazis I didn't mind too much, but since the election they have been attacking pretty much anybody on the right who dares to have a demonstration or even public meeting or rally.
I agree that Antifa is a new and growing threat, but I disagree with you about the KKK, Nazis, and white supremacists. The FBI has been very clear that right wing terrorism is a significant threat. When Duke polled police departments, they saw right wing extremism as a greater threat than Islamic extremism in their local jurisdictions. And incidents have been growing. So instead of fighting about which is worse, why not track both and hold both accountable?

So I have no problem with warning about Antifa, but I don't like covering up for right wing extremists.
haithabu wrote:And now because of the moral panic which Charlottesville began, I am afraid that they will be emboldened even more. It is my apprehension that the left in the US will be using Charlottesville as a sort of Reichstag fire issue against conservatives.
The Reichstag fire only worked because Hitler was already Chancellor. Right now, Republicans are in charge of both houses of Congress and the White House. If you fear a repeat of the Reichstag fire, remember that it happened when Nazis in power hyped accusations against the left. But I agree that we should want our government to take violence on all sides seriously. And when someone blames the violence on one side, we should look at the other side too.
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Sudsy
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Sudsy »

God did not give us a spirit that makes us afraid but a spirit of power and love and self-control. 2 Timothy 1:7
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Bootstrap
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:God did not give us a spirit that makes us afraid but a spirit of power and love and self-control. 2 Timothy 1:7
Amen.

And perhaps the right approach is to be equally opposed to all violence, equally suspicious of all extremists and careful to establish the facts before believing extreme claims on either side.

Or perhaps we should just focus on having compassion for those who are being threatened and intimidated and finding ways to show that, starting with praying for them and our country. This is affecting my city right now. Currently, my best solution may be to keep teaching Syrian refugees English. I'm thinking about ways we could work with a black church we are close to, perhaps building a Habitat house together with them or something. I suspect that biblical compassion needs to find hands and feet, and needs to avoid common ground with violence, but does not need to see through all conspiracy theories. It takes a lot of work to research every claim someone makes. Perhaps that work is better devoted elsewhere.
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RZehr
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by RZehr »

Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:And I hope we also all agree that Nazis and KKK are evil, and threatened people who live in Charlottesville.
Well, that is maybe part of my issue.

I do not. I see their ideology as hatred and very judgemental. I see their ideology as evil, but not the person spouting it.

I think their hatred is harmful and their actions often cause others harm. I think their desire to eliminate Jews and African Americans is sick. I see them as broken and their hearts dark. I do not see them as evil, but their actions often are. I see them as redeemable, but also realize that it is no easy feat and they can do a lot of harm before that might happen.

Maybe you were meaning the same thing and just used a shortened form of saying it.
How can you separate someones evil actions from a label of evil? That doesn't make sense to me. If doing evil and speaking evil doesn't make one evil, the no one is evil and the term carries no meaning. Labeling people by their actions is what we do. Miller, Smith, etc., was what these people did. Thief, murderer, etc the same.

This doesn't mean that the person only does evil all the time, nor does it mean they are irredeemable.

I have no problem calling a person that does evil an evil doer, or an evil person. Not in a name calling way, but as a simple acknowledgement of fact.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by JimFoxvog »

On calling people evil, maybe what Jesus had to say is relevant:
[bible]Matthew 7,11[/bible]
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haithabu
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by haithabu »

It's a short step for someone to go from calling one person evil because of their actions to calling a another person evil in spite of their actions, simply because they're associated together in the first person's mind. This is what Antifa has been doing, and what their progressive fan base is doing on social media, and also what everyone who has been called a hater while attempting to engage in a civil discussion online has experienced.

So I would be careful with calling anyone evil, even if I'm pretty sure they are. If calling someone "Raca" is culpable, then certainly it must be to call them evil.
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Szdfan
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Szdfan »

bootstrap wrote:
haithabu wrote:And now because of the moral panic which Charlottesville began, I am afraid that they will be emboldened even more. It is my apprehension that the left in the US will be using Charlottesville as a sort of Reichstag fire issue against conservatives.
The Reichstag fire only worked because Hitler was already Chancellor. Right now, Republicans are in charge of both houses of Congress and the White House. If you fear a repeat of the Reichstag fire, remember that it happened when Nazis in power hyped accusations against the left. But I agree that we should want our government to take violence on all sides seriously. And when someone blames the violence on one side, we should look at the other side too.
I honestly find it a bit jarring for an American conservative to compare himself to the victims of the holocaust. To me, this analogy seems like an error in moral or logical reasoning and its own example of moral panic. I'm not sure exactly why, but this doesn't feel like a solid comparison.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

JimFoxvog wrote:On calling people evil, maybe what Jesus had to say is relevant:
[bible]Matthew 7,11[/bible]
When Robert raised the question, the first thing I did was look at how the New Testament refers to people, and it does call people evil in a number of places.

But I think this is a legitimate concern: calling people evil isn't going to help them see their evil, it will just polarize them. It's not helpful. So thanks to those who are pointing that out.
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Sudsy
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:God did not give us a spirit that makes us afraid but a spirit of power and love and self-control. 2 Timothy 1:7
Amen.

And perhaps the right approach is to be equally opposed to all violence, equally suspicious of all extremists and careful to establish the facts before believing extreme claims on either side.

Or perhaps we should just focus on having compassion for those who are being threatened and intimidated and finding ways to show that, starting with praying for them and our country. This is affecting my city right now. Currently, my best solution may be to keep teaching Syrian refugees English. I'm thinking about ways we could work with a black church we are close to, perhaps building a Habitat house together with them or something. I suspect that biblical compassion needs to find hands and feet, and needs to avoid common ground with violence, but does not need to see through all conspiracy theories. It takes a lot of work to research every claim someone makes. Perhaps that work is better devoted elsewhere.
To me, although doing good deeds for others is a way to reflect God's love for them, the greatest need for those 'being threatened and intimidated' as to lead them to the one who can rescue them from these fears. Share with them how we can live a life that is set free from violence and all kinds of sinful, unpeaceful conflicts. But in sharing this, we might have to address why this message is not reflective in all of us who engage in some form of fearful responses to what goes on in this world.

Jesus said "I am leaving you with a gift--peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don't be troubled or afraid." John 14:27 NLT. And in another text- "Don't worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done." Philippians 4:6 NLT. And "And now, dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. Fix your thoughts on what is true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise." Philippians 4:8 NLT

The way we view life is radically different to how the world sees things or should be.

I think it gets down to when was the last time I shared with someone about what it means to join the Kingdom of God and become a citizen where these things that go on in the world need not rob our peace and love and joy in life. If we have the answer, why would we not share this solution with the millions of troubled souls all around us ? Wouldn't that be the way to really show compassion ? I'm not hearing much of that here so is that what Anabaptists believe and if so, why not this emphasis ? Love to hear all your views.
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