Errors in moral reasoning

[JimFoxvog]

The New Testament doesn’t have a theme of accepting pagan practices as somehow okay.

But Paul knew Greek philosophy and quoted the philosophers as if he were speaking truth. Most every false teaching, whether Christian heresy or pagan, has a bit of truth in it. When we can identify and affirm these truths in our proclaiming the gospel we can often connect better to our audience, just as Paul did.

[bible]Acts 17,28[/bible]

[PeterG]

Is this view supported by scripture? It’s pretty clear how God feels about heathens and their pagan practices.

The story of the good Samaritan comes to mind.

The New Testament doesn’t have a theme of accepting pagan practices as somehow okay.

I don't see where Dan said anything about pagan practices. He was addressing "the temptation to think that there is no wisdom or virtue or good faith on the other side of an issue." Your own analysis of the story of the good Samaritan supports Dan's point quite well.

[temporal1]

In his above message, Dan (reminds me) of a version of, “hate the sin, while loving the sinner.”

On this forum, i do not doubt the sincerity of members’ views, and, i believe God highly values INTENT, over “simple” right-wrong of ever-imperfect human understanding
(our “filthy rags). Isaiah 64:6
fwiw. i doubt this view is shared by all.

(i believe) Josh reminds of God’s scriptural imperatives to worship 1 True God, as stated in
(first commandments) both OT and NT, graphically illustrated with God’s loathing of
lukewarmness. Rev 3:16

Right now, lots of people are thinking on these matters, puzzled, if not astonished, by Pope Francis’ words in Saudi Arabia:

“Does God want religious diversity? / Abu Dhabi text raises questions”
https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology ... -questions

What about Christian scriptural understanding? (As Josh seeks.)
Yes, the pope’s words are contemporary-western-feeling-friendly - - -

But, what do scriptures say?
Jesus said He came to divide. Luke 12:51

Maybe moreso, i wonder about the imam’s response, which may be flat-out rejection.
In the imam’s context, the pope’s words might be quite unwelcome and insulting?

Lots to pray about. To pray for God’s will, not our own.

[JimFoxvog]

“Does God want religious diversity? / Abu Dhabi text raises questions”
https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology ... -questions

From the linked article:

Speaking to reporters flying back to Rome with him Feb. 5, the pope said, "I want to restate this clearly: from the Catholic point of view, the document does not deviate one millimeter from Vatican II."

"Nostra Aetate," the council document on the church's relationship with other religions, affirmed: "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men."

Proclaiming the church's "esteem" for Muslims, the council noted that "they adore the one God" and strive to submit to his will. "Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin mother; at times they even call on her with devotion."

The Vatican II document does not say that everything in all religions comes from God, but one cannot deny that God created human beings with a desire to seek and find him, and the world's religions contain at least elements of what is necessary to move toward God.

I think I agree with the Catholic stance I quote above. I sometimes wonder, though, if the good elements in false religions are distractions meant to keep people from the way of Jesus.

[Dan Z]

Is this view supported by scripture? It’s pretty clear how God feels about heathens and their pagan practices.

The story of the good Samaritan comes to mind.

The New Testament doesn’t have a theme of accepting pagan practices as somehow okay. It does indeed have a theme of separation.

First - if you think I am arguing for "accepting pagan practices as somehow okay," then either I have gravely miscommunicated my faith all along, or you are choosing to read things into my post that do not exist. In either case, please understand that the intent of my post was not to endorse paganism (Honestly, I can't believe I'm having to say this ).

My encouragement against Bigotry (i.e. obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices - Merriam-Webster) and toward seeing value in each individual is most certainly an idea centered on the teachings and example of Christ. I think it is based on the biblical idea that we should not think more highly of ourselves than we ought, and that we are calld to love our neighbor as ourselves. While Jesus directly challenged sin and sinners (as should we), he overtly did not participate in the bigotry and prejudices of his day - relating personally and respectfully to Samaritans, Centurions, prostitutes, tax collectors, women, outcasts, diseased, the poor and deranged - all at the cost of his own reputation.

Again, my point here is not that we cease wrestling with issues of morality, ethics, right and wrong, but to do so within the context of respect, being careful in how tribal, harsh, and judgmental we are toward those who God dearly loves.

Regarding the terms "heathen" and "pagan" that you brought into the discussion - it is interesting - the term "heathen" is an Old-Testament term from the Hebrew word for "nations" - in particular it is used to broadly describe those outside of the house of Israel. "Pagan" is a New Testament term from the Latin word for "rustics, or country-folks." It became used in the NT as a synonym for Heathen. Neither phrase was overtly pejorative in origin, and my sense is that these phrases became more pejorative over time as tribal instincts and motives came to the fore within Christendom. I do recognize that the Old Covenant certainly uses the term "heathen" in a more tribalistic way - but then the Old Covenant was a more tribal covenant. This is part of its insufficiency - Christ came to bring the Kingdom to "every tribe and nation," until "the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ." The New Testament use of the term "pagan" focuses especially on practices and pursuits that are ungodly in nature.

To summarize - calling sin sin is certainly a Christ-like idea, disparaging people groups or discounting the value or intellect of others - not so much. Hope that makes sense.

[Josh]

Dan,

I can very much acknowledge the personhood and value of each believer in Scientology or Church of God, Restoration. I can even admit some of them live good lives.

However, there is absolutely not one whit of truth to the idea we have space alien spirits called “thetans” infecting our brains, even though Scientologists believe this. Scientology is patently false and is a bad, wrong belief system. And so are other false religions like Islam or various heretical Christian sects like Church of God, Restoration.

I reject the ecumenical idea to “see the good in all religions”. There’s only one way to God, and that’s through Jesus. The Bible is the only true text where one can learn the truth about God and Jesus. Every other path leads to eternal destruction.

[Dan Z]

I agree Josh. “There is no name under heaven or earth by which we must be saved.” The apostle speaks my heart.

I reread my posts - twice- and honestly I fail to find any support for paganism, Scientology, Islam, or “seeing the good in all religions.” Frankly, that’s an idea that would undermine all that I have given my life to. But maybe you weren’t rebutting so much as adding new thoughts.

In any case, We’re obviously not speaking the same language here...and I am lacking the time and patience to rebut or apologize for things I haven’t said. I’ll just leave things where they are at this point and wish you well.

[Josh]

I agree Josh. “There is no name under heaven or earth by which we must be saved.” The apostle speaks my heart.

I reread my posts - twice- and honestly I fail to find any support for paganism, Scientology, Islam, or “seeing the good in all religions.” Frankly, that’s an idea that would undermine all that I have given my life to. But maybe you weren’t rebutting so much as adding new thoughts.

In any case, We’re obviously not speaking the same language here...and I am lacking the time and patience to rebut or apologize for things I haven’t said. I’ll just leave things where they are at this point and wish you well.

Dan, here’s what you said:

One simple measure of our integrity in this area is how often we belittle or demonize groups of people outside of our particular tribe or mindset - and how often we use tribal labels pejoratively against others. I honestly think we would all do well to resist vilifying those outside of our in-group - this is at its core bigotry.

We need to remember that the vast majority of people from "other" groups/perspectives are flesh and blood individuals like we are, and that most are sincerely trying to live moral and upright lives like we are. They are our neighbors - dearly loved by God. Oh, and they are sometimes right and sometimes wrong about things - like we are.

I guess it depends on what “belittle” or “demonise” means.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if people think they are trying to live moral and upright lives. A big part of the message of the gospel is that our own attempts to be moral and upright aren’t good enough in the eyes of God, and are literally of no value to him - Isaiah described such as “filthy rags”.

[KingdomBuilder]

It looks to me like the Pope is trying to drawn on the globalist mentality that’s already well established.
Scary stuff.

[MaxPC]

Right now, lots of people are thinking on these matters, puzzled, if not astonished, by Pope Francis’ words in Saudi Arabia:

“Does God want religious diversity? / Abu Dhabi text raises questions”
https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology ... -questions

What about Christian scriptural understanding? (As Josh seeks.)
Yes, the pope’s words are contemporary-western-feeling-friendly - - -

But, what do scriptures say?
Jesus said He came to divide. Luke 12:51

Maybe moreso, i wonder about the imam’s response, which may be flat-out rejection.
In the imam’s context, the pope’s words might be quite unwelcome and insulting?

Lots to pray about. To pray for God’s will, not our own.

I think it's a mistake to jump on any words of Francis' immediately. He has trouble expressing himself without someone misinterpreting. That said, whenever bits like this hit the press, I always, always wait for the other shoe to drop: the clarification of what he had wanted to say and that has been done in the past week or so.

Benedict did not have this problem so much. He was very clear, if tedious in his explanations of church doctrine so that there was no doubt from the outset of what he was trying to say. Benedict understood the sound byte mindset of the press regarding Catholic doctrine. Very rarely was he misinterpreted re Catholic doctrine. Francis' off the cuff habits when speaking on church teaching hurt more than help.